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Interesting pattern recognition......update

Good morning bloggers,

(I will update this blog around noon after the new data comes out)

Something big to think about today!

The weather pattern is now bordering on becoming one of the most exciting weather patterns in many years.  Sometimes this happens and you don't enjoy it until it is over.  So, let's stop and smell the roses every week as we go through this year's LRC.  Remember there is a lot more to the LRC than the simplicity that I try to show you!  It is so complex that we really need some PHD students to grab onto my theory and do the research that I just don't have the time to do.  There are two ways I try to explain the LRC to you.  #1:  "Long term" longwave troughs and ridges set up between October 1st and November 10th.  These troughs and ridges will drive the main storm tracks through the entire season and if you are near one of these "long term" long wave troughs then you will have a much better chance of having strong storm systems throughout the entire pattern.  So, not only will we likely experience the big stormy part of the pattern of the first half of December, which will return twice before our snowy season ends, but we also will have potential in other parts of the pattern since we believe one of these "long term" longwave troughs is located near Missouri extending north to the western Great Lakes states.  #2:  A cycle becomes established and repeats over and over again from November through summer.  Every year is unique!

As we were researching for our winter forecast this year, NBC Action News meteorologist Jeff Penner came across this site: http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/ncepreanal/  This is a great site with archived data. We were looking at all of the La Nina years of the past.  And, we did notice a La Nina influence but at the same time we noticed the LRC and the pattern of "long term" longwaves was very different every year, and this was just more evidence that anomalies like La Nina, El Nino, etc. influence the pattern, but they don't create it.  Anyway, my point is....as we were looking through all of the years we came across one very interesting find.  The weather year, 1959-1960.  It was a very weak La Nina year, almost neutral.  But, looking at that weather pattern it appears the "long term" longwave troughs and ridges are almost identical to this year.  Oh, there are differences, but the patterns are closely aligned and about a week or so out of phase.  What happened in 1959-60?  There was a wet October, and extremely dry November (sounds familiar), a stormier, but not so wet December, and then blast away with one of our snowiest winters in Kansas City history.  58 inches of snow fell that winter, with 20 inches in February and 29 inches in March.  How does that sound to you?  Wow!  A pattern that actually compares to this year's weather pattern, and the results thus far have been similar.  Could we be about to have a very snowy winter?  It is possible and we are seeing the potential for this to happen. 

The LRC appears to have a 53 to 57 day cycle, which means the part of the pattern that just produced the stormy first half of December will likely return between January 20th and February 10th, and again between March 15th and April 5th.  Kansas City's biggest snowstorm in our recorded history happened in March.  And, it appears that the weeks in between the stormy periods could also continue to be active.  The part of the pattern that produced the 30 day dry spell of November could be much more active this time through as there was no cold air available in November.  With the baroclinic zone farther north in November strong storm systems tracked across southern Canada while we were forced into the dry and warmer month. With Arctic air now readily available and likely returning in a bigger way in January, there is a very good chance that we will have an active pattern through most of this winter.  The first Arctic air mass of the season was generated across Canada in November, while we were warm. That same part of the pattern is going to evolve in the next few weeks.  We will get blasted sometime by a real Arctic air mass this winter, and with this pattern we are in, there will be some major winter storms in our near future.

As I said, we better stop to smell the roses.  If this is really happening, it is extremely rare so let's enjoy it.  Hopefully there won't be any more major ice storms, as I vote for snow over ice every time.  We will stick to our winter forecast which includes 19 inches of snow, but now that we know the pattern better I am expecting it to go over that total, possilby much higher.

Last nights GFS model and other models have trended towards us having a possibility of snow on Saturday. I will add to the blog after the new data comes out later this morning.

UPDATE:  The models have mostly come, still waiting on the ECMWF and UKMET.  But, the Canadian model, GFS, and NAM all have a strong southern wave that must be watched for Saturday.  They try to phase it into the flow which would eliminate any big storm.  A slightly stronger solution could still produce snow on Saturday.  The trend is away from a storm, but it is only Tuesday.

Have a great day!

Gary

 

Published Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:54 AM by glezak

Comments

 

homerun said:

Gary--Great information---Even though every year is unique, are you saying there are years similar (but the pattern length of days are different) in where the set-up is there for the larger amounts of winter precip because of the way ridges and throughs are formed?  I am still compiling information on my snow study of Kansas but these three years were "La Nina" years--one you mentioned---in South Central-Central Kansas snowfall in 1959-1960 was 36 inches--1974-1975--34.4 inches---1983-1984 29.1 inches---Since I was born in 1953 I remember the 1959-1960 snows as I was just starting school.  You are right since this is another unique year we better enjoy it as it happens.  But I vote for no more ice storms.  This one was a dandy!  Michael/Berryton/Topeka

--------------------

Michael,

The "long term" longwaves are different every year, but sometimes there are similarities, and this 1959-60 comparison is a good one.  It is still different, but it is amazing how, so far the results have been similar.  In October we thought it was really lining up nicely.  So, let's see what happens.  Looking back, when you were a kid, some of Kansas City's biggest snows occurred!

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:04 AM
 

momof3 said:

Oh Gary wouldn't that make for an amazing winter!!!!!  I wanted to say Congratulations on being number one.  Maybe other people are starting to see what we are seeing!  We have long known how accurate you guys are and now the others are too!!!

--------------

Thank you!  It is amazing how mom of 3 girls and momma of three girls both posted back to back!

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:09 AM
 

mamaof3girls said:

Well I was not around for that event but I am sure looking forward to it happening again. We do not get really good winter's around here so I will take one this time....with a big smile on my face. I do however remember the 1983-1984 winter.....it was the best of my childhood years. Have a great day everyone!!
Monica
Pleasanton

---------------

Monica,

I wasn't born yet in 1959-60 either.  We are still very young.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:12 AM
 

Adam Penney said:

Gary,
 
  Is there another website that you use to view the GFS model? The NAM on the NCEP website is working just fine, but the GFS is recording an error, so it is unreadable on this site.........http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/

Can you give me another good website to view the GFS??

Thanks....

------------------

They should have the NCEP site up and running this morning.  Their problems rarely last more than half a day.  Let's hope so.  The 00z GFS had a major snowstorm Saturday, but the 06z GFS did not.  So, let's wait and see if the site is back up this morning.  You can use UCAR's site: http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/model/ to see last nights GFS.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:20 AM
 

Ross said:

"We will stick to our winter forecast which includes 19 inches of snow, but now that we know the pattern better I am expecting it to go over that total, possilby much higher."

Don't get excited | Don't get excited | Don't get excited

Gaah... okay I'm excited.

I remember 83-84 as well except I was in Vernal, Utah having just moved from Sitka, Alaska.  I thought we had moved to this sagebrush area, no snow would ever come.  And BOOM, we got lot's of snow.  Granted we were at a higher elevation, but I remember I had an awesome snow fort in my back yard.  Our huge picnic table was the base of the snow fort.

-----------------------

Let's take it in day by day. 

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:26 AM
 

momof3 said:

That is pretty funny!  Hi Monica!  I wasn't born yet either but I know I remember there seemed like there were always huge snows growing up.  I'm not sure what my kids would do if we had a major snowstorm.  I know they want more snow really badly, but I think I want it more than they do!!!!!!!  Again great job as always!
December 18, 2007 8:26 AM
 

boootz said:

I wish as a kid growing up in Kansas, I would have in some way recorded the snowfalls we had.....I can remember though that in 1975-1978, We had snows every winter that were measured in feet not inches, and it never seemed that unusual.

-----------------

We will know in a few weeks.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:26 AM
 

Trentonite said:

Trentonite said:
Once the cycle of the LRC is established, it remains that way for approximately 12 months?  Is there any evidence showing that the 12 month cycles recur also?  In other words could we find one in the past that is the same as the one we are currently in?  (Meaning that the 12 month cycles recur say every 5yrs or 10yrs, etc.)
December 13, 2007 3:38 PM

--------------

I doubt it, but it isn't something I have really looked at.  And, even though a pattern may be similar, it is still unique so there will be differences.  Subtle differences can be huge in how it affects our storm systems.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:34 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Would you say it is true that if a storm does or does not happen, either scenario can fit your cycling theory for this year?  

If it happens, it will be similar to the 10/31 event (when we didn't have a storm in KC) because the jet is farther south now and stronger...and if it doesn't happen, that fits the theory too because we didn't have a storm on 10/31?

I'm intrigued by your comparison to 1959/60 ... I'll have to check out more about that season when I have more time.  

Because this Fall season may have started out like the Fall of 1959/60, do you see that as reason to believe that the upcoming winter that starts later this week will be similar to the winter of 59/60?

---------------------

Notes,

I think you will be impressed in how we found this comparison.  We were just looking at La Nina years.  And then after looking at all of them we found some similar characteristics to them, no doubt about it.  But, then we kept looking at all of the years.  And, Jeff started going through 1959-60 and called me over and we were sort of shocked at how the troughs and ridges moved across the northern hemisphere.  It was obvious to us that they were digging into the same spots as this years pattern.  We kept studying and looking to see how the season progressed and we came to the conclusion that it was indeed a close comparison to what we have seen this year.  THEN we went to see what happened that year and it just blew us away.  We did this later in November.  And, the wet October and extremely dry November just stood out and is exactly what the pattern is producing this year.

And, I am not just going to just find a way to explain that it is the same pattern if the storm hits or misses this weekend.  It will either be there or not.  Of course you know that we believe it is there.  Look carefully.  It is trying to be the same trough as at the end of October.  The southern extension is just stronger, which it should be in December.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:35 AM
 

mamaof3girls said:

Hello to you momof3....Gary gets us confused a lot, LOL!!! That is why I always put my name. Yes I agree...as a kid I seem to remember more snow and I also remember sitting in the garage with my dad and watching the severe storms roll in from the southwest more often. I would love to go back to those kinds of winters/springs. Ahhhhhh!!!!!
Monica
Pleasanton
December 18, 2007 8:40 AM
 

4caster said:

Gary,
I always find it fascinating to compare patterns of the past!  I still like to pull out my patterns of snowy December, dry July.  If you go back for the past 30 years or so, look at the snowfalls in December, particularly big storms, and then look at the summer rainfall totals.  Being a farmer and a meteorologist, this has special meaning to me.  In December 1982, we had a major storm (at least here in Western Illinois) and 1983 was a bad drought. In Dec. '87, we had a big winter storm, '88 was a drought.  Big storm in '98, '99 was a drought.  And last year, last December's storm in the beginning of the month, and once again, we had a dry year.  Now, the point I am attempting to make is that the snowier the December is, the drier the next summer will be.  This makes me once again concerned about my crops going into next year. HOWEVER, the fact that we might be seeing a very large  cyclical pattern shift from almost 50 years ago makes me think that the pattern may be modifying and we start over.  So my next questions are, and I will research this as well, what was the spring storm season like, and how much moisture fell during 1960?  
As what both of us said, weather is all about patterns, so let's make our jobs a little easier and determine them!  

Merry Christmas, to all.
BAClair

----------------

We haven't looked into that yet.  Let us know what you find.  I am on my way to work out, if there are more comments I may not have the time in the next few hours to respond.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:41 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Wow I'm looking forward to some real excitement early next year.  I believe you're really on to something with the LRC theory and wish someone would look into this more scientifically.  I'm still cautiously optimistic about these historical snowfall totals coming true now, but even half that much snow is great winter IMO.  If we see some craziness in late January early February then I'll be prepared for even more.

You said this old data from 1959-60 is supposedly cycling back now, so does this mean we're also on a 48 year cycle too, so next year we're looking at 1960-61?  I asked because that number is very close to the 45 days you threw out last winter about the LRC.

---------------

I really don't believe in the yearly cycles, but I certainly haven't spent any time on it.

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:42 AM
 

beckysma said:

Uh, it sounded good until you got to the part about 29 inches in March.

By then, I will be soooooo over snow and ready for spring.  Please take that part out!!!!
December 18, 2007 8:48 AM
 

weatherjoy said:

Wow-- sounds exciting! We'll see . . . -- Gary-- what does this mean for spring? Severe weather/thunderstorms are my passion . . .
December 18, 2007 8:51 AM
 

Mark M said:

With the year of 1959-60, how did the spring and summer fair out?  Did we continue to get good moisture in the spring and summer?  Just wondering.

As for the potential for lots more snow - bring it on.  I would much rather have the snow than the ice and all of the problems that go along with that.

One more thing, yesterday you mentioned that one of the models was bringing in snow on Christmas Eve.  Is this still showing up?  I know it is way out there and not to get excited about it, just wandering if it is a slight possibility.

------------------------------

We will look into it, but let's see what happens first.  It still could end up quite different.

Christmas forecast later...

Gary

December 18, 2007 8:53 AM
 

5kckmartins said:

Monica,
 I too remember the winter of 83-84.  You are right it was something.  My birthday is the 1st and I had a big birthday party scheduled that year, well it had to be postponed for a week.  Now that I"m older I really dont' mind that happening this year ROFL.

Gary..
CONGRATS, You are the best.. and we've watched for years.  Just wish you'd drop the high temp for Monday, that way IF it does snow this weekend it can hang around till Christmas.

Stacy
December 18, 2007 9:01 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Gary you said there's a 5% chance of snow for Christmas last night.  Was that forecast assuming we didn't receive any snow this Saturday or that it's going to be too warm to keep any of the snow around until Christmas?

---------------------

The way the new data is looking, it will not be too warm to melt any snow after Saturday, but there is also no snowstorm on the new data.  I do see some possibility of snow Christmas Eve or Chritsmas Day though?  The chance may move up from 5% tonight on the newscasts.

Gary

December 18, 2007 9:02 AM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Wow!! Amazing! Fabulous!
Any chance of a Blizzard this Winter? :)

You guys when Gary retires in 40-50 yrs from now then He will have time to study the LRC.

-------------------

Andrew,

40 or 50 years from now?  How about 15 years from now.

Gary

December 18, 2007 9:16 AM
 

kellyann said:

I have several comments....I was not born in in '59 or '60, but my mom was starting high school and said winters were so snowy and it would be in feet, not any 2 or 3 in storms. I remember when I was little, we had huge storms always around Christmas. My relatives would have to drive in from the country cause we all lived on a farm, and it would always either be snowing christmas eve, or have just snowed at least 8 inches, it was so so cool!!!....Lastly, I just got back from being gone for a few days and I read the blogs from last night...My husband laughs whenever he sees me reading the blogs and says Im too much of a weather freak, but when he noticed so many people talking about Rush, he thought it was so cool! Rush is his favorite group. He has all of the ticket stubs from their concerts and all of their CD's and concert shirts...He even has a 2112 tapestry, lol...Now he will be hooked on this blog, thanks everyone for mentioning Rush!!!  Kelly
December 18, 2007 9:21 AM
 

farmgirl said:

Glad I bought extra round bales of hay. I use the ol' how furry my horses get in October weather forcast. Ha! Two of my mares look like wooly bears. They started those coats in mid-october. The other three had moderate coats, but are completely wooly now. Watching animals and behavior can tell you a lot about what the weather will do too.
December 18, 2007 9:22 AM
 

Scott said:

I will stay out of the fray on this one, but this blog entry is very frustrating to me.  It extends the flip flopping in my mind on the LRC.  

It is unique or it isn't.  Stating that it is unique, but in the next paragraph indicating there is a strong similarity to a prior year is a large contridiction.  

In fact, in the past where some have made analogues to prior years, Gary, you have been the first to discount them as the LRC indicates each year is unique.

I don't know if you are making any concessions regarding this analysis, but I wish you would take a stance and stick to it.

Sorry for my frustration, but it just kills me that concensus is sought for the LRC, but it always seems to change slightly in interpretation to match a scenerio.

For those that don't know...I support the LRC, but am strongly seeking consistency in what it is..as it seems to waver way too frequently for my taste.

Actually, the above blog somewhat validates the claim I have argued with Gary all along, in that I don't think each year is unique or think it starts in the time frame stated..but largely, I have kept this critique offline...but I had to say something based on the above.

Look, I know I am blowing this out of proportation...and I apologize.

Sometimes, it all just looks like smoke and mirrors.

------------------

Scott,

Calm down a bit!  Every year is unique.  I made this statement, once again, and I stand by it.  Just because we found a year that is similar, doesn't mean that it is exactly the same.  This pattern is still unique, but the "long term" longwaves appear to be close to the same spots.  They aren't exactly in the same location, and the cycle that year was likely different as well.  There is no contradictory at all here.  This is just an observation that we found as we were looking at all of the La Nina's.  It doesn't cut into my theory at all. 

Gary

December 18, 2007 9:51 AM
 

bgmike said:

Gary,

Thank you for your insight into this intriguing discovery.  Will it validate?  Only time will tell.  I know that you believe 100% in the LRC and I commend you for your commitment.  My only criticism is that in the haste to be the first among the local TV stations to go public with your winter forecast you may have missed something huge.  I know that your first priority is to you boss, just like the rest of us.  Less we forget that you work for a TV station that relies on ratings which drive revenue from advertisers.  If not for good ratings you don't have a job.  However, sometimes being the first out of the gate is not always the best approach.  I somehow keep recalling the tortoise and the hare story.  I must believe that if you had recognized this pattern before your official winter forecast that your totals would be MUCH different.  Now you have opened yourself up for critique by your detractors.  I guess what I am trying to say is that it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you would wait until you have recognized the pattern before selling us a forecast.  Just my thoughts on it.

Later,
Mike in Ottawa

-------------------

Mike,

It doesn't have anything to do with giving into my boss.   One of the main aspects to the LRC is the location of the "long term" longwave troughs and ridges.  I believe these can be identified by around November 10th. This is when I make the winter forecast.  But, in reality I should wait until about mid December to make the winter forecast.  It isn't the boss that forces me to make that forecast around the second  week of November.  It is you, the bloggers, and the viewers, that expect it.  I could wait until about now to make a more educated forecast, but we have found that our first instincts are usually pretty good.   What do you think?  Should we wait until now, or give our first impression in November?

Gary

December 18, 2007 10:14 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary,

Like I said, I'm certianly intrigued by your comparison to 59/60 and will certainly look in to it more.  I just can't help but feel like my questions weren't really answered though.

1.  Regarding the potential weekend storm; my question is this:  It seems as though you're on the fence with the storm by stating that if a storm doesn't happen, that proves your theory because we had no storm on 10/31.  But if we DO get a storm, that supports your theory because it'd be the same storm from the northern plains just dropping down due to the stronger, more southern jet that comes with winter.  So are you really implying that either weekend solution supports your theory?  

Notes, not really.  I expect the northern part of the storm to dominate and thus the southern part should struggle, which would fit this pattern almost perfectly.  If the southern wave is more separated and more of a storm then will I come up with an explanation just so I can fit it into the LRC?  No!  I won't just make it up.  It is either there or it isn't. But, a small kicking out short wave can sometimes create a big surface storm.  So, there is hope even in the same pattern.  The latest GFS supports the pattern a bit more realistically and suddenly there is that upper low in the northern branch.  Let's go through the next few days before we jump to any conclusions on how it compares to the very weak version of this pattern in late October and early November.  I know this is where we diverge in our thoughts of the LRC.  And, I hope that the southern wave is more separate and stronger.  We could have a major storm, if this is the case, but it doesn't quite fit.  As you know very well, it doesn't always fit PERFECTLY.  If it did you would already be 100% with me on my theory.  We still believe it all fits, but sometimes it is difficult to get this point across.


2.  By making the comparison to 59/60, are you indicating that you believe since the fall of 1959 was similar to our current fall season, that you believe that the upcoming winter will be similar to the winter of 59/60?

Notes, it is the pattern that is similar.  The specific results are either a coincidence or a strong indication of what may happen.  So, I am making an assumption that similar specific results could happen if the longwaves are lined up closely to each other.  It certainly will be interesting to watch.  I brought it up today, because why not share our thoughts with you.  You know I don't hold anything back.  This is how I live my life as well.  I don't hold anything in.

Gary

December 18, 2007 10:34 AM
 

Adam Penney said:

The 12Z run of the GFS looks extremely weak for Saturday now. I wish it would just find some consistency, as it seems to have yet to do so regarding this weekend's potential. IMO, ithat specific run maybe "out to lunch".....

Your thoughts Gary???

------------------

It may be the more realistic solution. But, as we have seen in the past three weeks.  Just wait another day.  Our snows have shown up only a couple of days ahead of time.  If we are indeed near one of those "long term" longwave troughs then storm systems will continue to intensify as we get closer to the time of their development.  So there is still hope that this southern wave is a bit stronger.

Gary

December 18, 2007 10:39 AM
 

nastyweather said:

I'm glad someone else saw the same thing with the 12Z GFS, because I wasn't sure if I was looking at the wrong data, because it looked so weak.  Looks like more snow in norther Iowa and Minnesota for this weekend AS OF NOW.  I'm sure it will change all over the place by Friday.
December 18, 2007 10:48 AM
 

Emmysmom said:

I think I like what you are saying, Adam.  I am hoping for nothing substantial between here and Lincoln, NE this weekend...as long as travel is good Friday evening and Sunday afternoon, what it does Saturday wont bother me.

I grew up in Lincoln, NE and seemed to remember getting a LOT more snow back then.  Of course, I was in school, didn't have a job, and didn't have to drive in it, so I loved the snow.  I can remember walking in drifts up to my knees and loving every minute of it.  But now that I'm grown and drive a car that isn't particularly a great snow car (my husband drives a Mustang which is even worse), I dread the snow forecasts.  Maybe with a little one, who just turned 2, I can start enjoying the white stuff again...but not until after Sunday, and not the weekend of January 12th (my daughters rescheduled birthday party).

I'm very anxious to see the new data for this weekend, as one of the other stations this morning said Saturday into Sunday and possibly 3 inches.  Here's hoping that Gary comes out and says that the storm is missing us and heading down south.  : )
December 18, 2007 10:49 AM
 

Adam Penney said:

How in the world a TV station on Wednesday, December 18th, can make a VALID snow storm prediction with specific times and precip amounts for Saturday-Sunday December 22nd-23rd is mind boggling to me. If the models were so consistent with each other in the placement, strength, and timing of this storm, then maybe tomorrow you could start talking about about a ballpark figure. How meterologists and T.V. stations do this kind of stuff this far out, is SOOOO beyond me.

------------------------

Well, who are you talking about?  No one has made a prediction on any specifics at our station.  So, why did you bring this up right now, and it is Tuesday, December 18th.  Not Wednesday? 

Gary

December 18, 2007 10:57 AM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Ok, maybe 15-20 years. I can see you in a nursing home with Live: ESP on one computer and on another computer you have the new data coming in, and you are making the forecast for the NEW NBC Action Weather PLUS Weather team. You Jeff, Jeremy,and Brett would all be in the same nursing home, still forecasting the weather. :)      
Hey, maybe when you get older you will actually get some hair(a beard count too!) ! :)

-------------------

Andrew,

A nursing home in 15-20 years?  I hope not!  I am thinking anothe 50 years before a nursing home?  LOL

Gary

December 18, 2007 11:00 AM
 

sportsfreaked said:

Gary I have no idea what i just read as I am new to this but it sounds good all the snow. It will take me a while to digest everything but I know I appreciate the time u take to explain it to us that r just now trying to learn this and our love and interest in weather and how and why it does what it does. Thanks again for all the time u give us!!

-----------------

Your welcome!  Sometimes we get technical in our discussions, but most of the time I try to explain it in a way that you will understand!

Gary

December 18, 2007 11:11 AM
 

Scott said:

Gary, my apologies as I took my first reaction and wrote it down.  This is not my normal method.

That said, I think what got me was the way your entry was written, and not so much the content.  Actually, I agree more with what you said than you think.

I do think there are analogues that should be evaluated, beyond models and the LRC, I guess I was suprised to see you put that out there; as to this point, you have discounted analogues along with much of the teleconnection indicies and their relationships.

As far as the winter forecast and its timing.  If you waited until you have the longwaves and the cycle determined, half of the winter may be gone..so, I applaud your efforts to do it sooner.  I hope that the times that you may miss on your forecast will drive you to further research as how to see the pattern sooner.

As far as this storm coming up, I have no suprise it is migrating into the northern stream.  It is this part of the cycle that was evaluated in what I thought might happen this month.  I haven't budged.  I had made mention in the past week or two that the GFS was still referencing the prior cycle for long range model runs...and it was.  That is the flaw with any of these models, it tends to take current conditions and bias it for future runs until something triggers it to change.  Additionally, even the NWS yesterday began to see how the European model was beginning to stray.

It is this morph that should further solidify the horror of modelitis and going run to run.  

I get Note's point, but I also see Gary's as I have the same struggle in determining the cycle.  Just because it happened one way prior, does it mean it will happen the same way again?  Scientifically, the answer is no.  However, the cycle does tend to lend itself to duplicate itself...I can't explain it.  I just observe it.  

Lets say this year ends up being like 59/60.  What does that say for the LRC?  Would it indicate if similar events in a similar timeframe occur that it by relationship would have had the same longwaves and same cycle?  If so, would it have had the same LRC?  By definition, this can't be.  So...while it may be similar, it has to be different enough to be unique.

How would we measure this?  If the totality of the year is very similar, then it would assume it would have a relationship beyond the LRC and actually potentially discounting the LRC itself?

I don't have answers to the above, as I just pose them for thought.  I doubt this year ends up like 59/60, but if it did..then it begs more questions about the LRC.  Not the validity of the LRC, but the review of some of its principles.

Also..I know this is a long post, but one more thought.  Gary, that site you provided is very useful.  Because you can see a long loop of frames for a given area..have you thought about going back and using this site to define LRCs for years beyond what you have already captured?  Also, have you thought about watching a transition period between one LRC and another to see how it transitions?  It may leave clues about how the transition occurs and the timeframe the new LRC may set up.

Seems like this would be paramount in answering some of the biggest questions your critics pose.  You know me...in thinking about this, I am compelled to research it.

;-)

---------------

Scott,

This doesn't sacrafice all of the work on the LRC at all.  I just brought this up as it was something we noticed.  This year's pattern is still unique, but with the similarities to 1959-60 I just thought I would throw out the possibility that this could be a great pattern for us all the way through.  At the same time, what we know about the LRC is already helping make some predictions in the future on the big events we just experienced. And, the other parts of the pattern are becoming clearer as well. 

Gary

December 18, 2007 11:21 AM
 

KellyofIndependence said:

Hey Gary, I think Adam Penney saw the morning show on the station lowest on the comcast guide.  They were saying 2-3 inches on Saturday are possible. Since they are the only local station running any kind of news @ 4:00am we have or channel set to them when the locals start @5:00
SOOOOOO I catch there show every morning before I flip stations.  I just have to know if the Sky is going to completely cave in and end life on the planet as we know it.
December 18, 2007 11:43 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

I fail to see what is irresponsible for a forecaster to state that they think that "2-3 inches of snow is possible" 3-4 days prior to a storm as long as that is their fair interpretation of the situation.
December 18, 2007 11:49 AM
 

jacob said:

Wow!  This winter could actually end up being an active one!?!  This would be wonderful to see.  And it's funny that you say that we MIGHT have a very snowy winter this year...and just last night, "another station" said that starting on Christmas, and going into next year, we could be in the 50's and 60's and we might not see another good snow this year that it will be record setting warmth and very dry.  I wanted to smack him through the TV....LOL, I'm just kidding...but really.  I am really excited for what may happen, but I'm trying real hard not to get all my hopes up for it.  It will be a real interesting next few months!  "SMELL THE ROSES!"

---------------

I'm not saying anything, but I know that same station predicted no snow the rest of this month about 10 days ago as well.  Hmmmm, it snowed Saturday didn't it?

Gary

December 18, 2007 12:00 PM
 

Brent said:

Gary....did you have to say the 58 inches word?.......I am so excited that I can't help but jump for joy...this could be a record winter?!....wow....25 inches would be great for me!

-------------

Brent,

Remember, our forecast is for 19 inches.  I wouldn't be sad if it busted by 40 inches, but this pattern is what this pattern is.  Let's see if it produces.

Gary

December 18, 2007 12:00 PM
 

Scott said:

I didn't say it would sacrafice all the work...I just noted some things to think about as open questions should the relationship match.  

I appreciate the intent of the entry to show something cool...I was just a bit confused by it.

And yes, I am on board with the fact the recurring cycle or LRC or whatever- is becoming very useful right now in long range forecasting.  Silly models.

------------------

Scott,

Don't worry about it.  Jeff wanted us to post this a week ago.  I just waited until the weather calmed down.  This is still LRC 2007-2008.  It is unique.

Gary

December 18, 2007 12:00 PM
 

Scott said:

....and now Gary will be associated with saying we will get 58 inches of snow this year....

LOL

-----------------------

And, Notes will say, so what is it 19" or 58".  Will you just decide at the end of winter?  LOL

Gary (I'm out for a few hours....meetings.....work....other things in my life)

December 18, 2007 12:03 PM
 

Brent said:

oops...lol...I know meteorologists have to be careful what they say don't they?....lol....some people mis-interpret what they mean....I'm not counting on more than 30 inches though...even at the extreme....
December 18, 2007 12:09 PM
 

jacob said:

Ok now...don't go saying that Gary said we were going to get 58" of snow this year!  Don't hold him to that.  All he said was that was what happened way back when.  The only thing he said was that we might get more than his forecast of 19" of snow this year.  We all (including Gary) have to just wait until it happens and forecast on a storm by storm basis.  We will all just have to wait!
December 18, 2007 12:09 PM
 

KellyofIndependence said:

I wouldn't say it's irresponsible, just not prudent 96hours away from an event. I don't really pay any attention to amounts until we are within 12 hours of an event start time and that is how I go about preparing i.e. Gas in car, going to the store. Then by the time we get 6 hours away from a snow/ice event, THEN I expect the experts to have a real good handle on what will happen. Gary and the rest of the team have done a lot better than the 12 hour mark than ANY station in town. Even with the swing and wiff on last Friday's 6:00 pm newscast (6 hours to start). There forcast was the closest to being correct.

I guess I really don't have a problem with someone saying they think we could have a 2-3 snow this weekend, Gary may be thinking that very thing. I will say that when you present it in the manner that particular station presents not only the weather but the regular news as well. That's what I have a problem with, my wife's grandmother will hear them talk about the snow and how Terrible the roads are and how unsafe it is to leave your house she will be shut in and locked down starting Thursday night because that is the only station she watches and they want her to be afraid. The other part of that is, he didn't offer any "IF's" or Let's See what the next couple of days will bring. He just said we should have a 2-3 snow on Saturday maybe more if it changes from rain sooner.

I don't mean to sound like a KSHB Groupie, in fact I will blast Gary and the team if they miss and praise when they hit. But some of the others in this town are for entertainment purposes only.
December 18, 2007 12:11 PM
 

nastyweather said:

I'm starting to wonder if some people are going to run with the information Gary provided as an actual forecast for the next 3-4 months.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's just throwing this historical information out here to consider, not forecasting it to happen.  If more things come into line and this pattern stays true, then I'm sure this will be more of a forecast.  Regardless, it's very exciting possibility now.

Gary I think you're turning into the Allen Greenspan of KC Weather.  What's he going to say next...............
December 18, 2007 12:21 PM
 

Emmysmom said:

Back when the ice storm hit, I remember another meterologist (whom I dont even trust to tell me what its doing at the moment) saying that that storm -- the ice storm -- would probably be our biggest and/or worst storm all winter season.  I found it hard to believe -- even harder to believe the more I read this blog -- but I thought it was rather interesting that he would go out on a limb like that.
December 18, 2007 12:22 PM
 

johnmarr said:

gary if this should come to pass 50 60 inches of snow this will sure blow your forecast 17 inches of snow out of the water how will  explain this one it seems to me that alot of these storms that you call for in the eary stages are just part of pattern we are in and then they dont happen and you flip flop and act like oyou new that was going to happen  if you did than why didnt you call for it start with it just seems to me like what ever happens you make your forecast fit the end result thats not a typical gary we do belive strongly in your forcasting just admit it when you are wrong and take it like aman
December 18, 2007 12:22 PM
 

Brent said:

"I'm not saying anything, but I know that same station predicted no snow the rest of this month about 10 days ago as well.  Hmmmm, it snowed Saturday didn't it?

Gary"


they also said last night that we had already experienced the coldest part of the winter...and like jacob said...it will be warm and mostly dry the rest of the winter...lol
December 18, 2007 12:23 PM
 

Brent said:

yeah I don't want anyone to think I am taking Gary's blog like its his forecast......not at all...but he does imply that we could be in a similar pattern...which gives me hope...but no way am I taking it has his forecast...not even remotely...
December 18, 2007 12:27 PM
 

kellyann said:

Gary, how in the world could anyone even think or say we have had our coldest part of the winter already, and basically, we are home free from here on out, that we are not going to get any artic outbreaks or more snow and ice? What's worse, is that this is a supposedly meteorologist!!! You don't believe those predictions for one minute do you? lol
December 18, 2007 12:31 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary said:

"And, Notes will say, so what is it 19" or 58".  Will you just decide at the end of winter?  LOL.  Gary"

Nice dig.

But, actually, I won't say that.  I'll just expect that whether we get 19" or 58" or anything in between, you'll consider it verification of your forecast, as you'll cite yourself having talked about both possibilities.  Much like the upcoming potential storm...
December 18, 2007 12:54 PM
 

iplayoutside said:

Does this mean your bet with Keitzman moved in your favor?
December 18, 2007 12:58 PM
 

Brent said:

"Gary, how in the world could anyone even think or say we have had our coldest part of the winter already, and basically, we are home free from here on out, that we are not going to get any artic outbreaks or more snow and ice? What's worse, is that this is a supposedly meteorologist!!! You don't believe those predictions for one minute do you? lol"

I switched the channel right before he finished...because it seemed like a joke to me...lol
December 18, 2007 12:59 PM
 

Barry said:

1959 Kansas City had It's biggest Snow Storm ever 25 Inches.

I was a Student at the Kansas City Junior College and was driving a 1949 Ford.

I was using Tire Chains to get around.. Now that was a storm !!

Barry
December 18, 2007 1:05 PM
 

kellyann said:

Brent, I agree, it is a joke...that would be like saying right before the 4th of July, Well folks, It's been 90 some degrees for a month now, I think we have seen out hottest part of the summer now, so things should start to cool down now for the remainder of the summer!  Ya, what a joke, like I would believe that one!
December 18, 2007 1:10 PM
 

Zazel said:

I think the direction the current blog is heading is the reason why Gary has become less willing to suggest what may or may not happen in the future and instead, just stick to a forecast once he's comfortable with it.  He DID NOT say we are going to have 58 inches of snow this year.  Given Kansas City averages right around 20 inches of snow per year, there is no meteorologist in his right mind who would give an extended winter forecast predicting 58 inches.  What he DID say was that the winter of 1959/1960 produced 58 inches of snow with a SIMILAR (not identical!) pattern to what has happened thus for this year.  Just like the stock market, past results don't guarantee future results.

He has explicitly stated that he isn't changing his winter forecast of 19 inches.  If we were to have 58 inches of snow this year I believe Gary would be the first to admit he missed the winter forecast.  Afterall, predicting actual snowfall is nearly impossible and if he's off by 25% I'll say he was close enough, but if he's off by over 300% he would have no choice but to admit he was wrong.
December 18, 2007 1:14 PM
 

Mike ZooLoo said:

We were out of power for 5 days.  Some are still out.

http://mikezulu.com/ice.htm
December 18, 2007 1:14 PM
 

f00dl3 said:

As odd as this may sound... if you look at top 3 snowy winters they were 1911/12, 1959/00, and 1961/62.

1911/12 + 48 = 1959/00
1959/00 + 48 = 2007/08
1961/62 + 48 = 2009/10

We are due for one!
December 18, 2007 1:24 PM
 

sportsfreaked said:

Mike I know exactly how they feel. We keep them in our prayers and pray that they get power on soon. I remember the ice storm here we were one of the last to get power after 8 days. we spent the last 3 nights in a hotel. I still remember when the ice storm hit asleep and at around 3 am my wife and I awoke to a big crash we knew immediatly the tree had fallen on the pool which was only 4 months old. My wife said don't bother looking u already know what that was go back to sleep. Gook luck to u all!!
December 18, 2007 1:33 PM
 

Brent said:

"He DID NOT say we are going to have 58 inches of snow this year"

I never said he said we would get that much...sheesh...you say one thing and people grasp onto it...and base a whole argument on it...lol I was never under the impression that he said 58 inches was even possible...much less his forecast...lol...so...please don't think that I think that was what he is forecasting for this winter...lol

thanks

Brent
December 18, 2007 1:34 PM
 

Brent said:

"We were out of power for 5 days.  Some are still out.

http://mikezulu.com/ice.htm"



wow.......thats really bad......that is almost as bad as the 2002 ice storm...where do you live?!
December 18, 2007 1:37 PM
 

flurr said:

johnmarr - the purpose of the blog is to interact and give people insight beyond what they see on the news. Gary came out, mentioned a pattern that they saw and what happened last time it occurred. He said he's sticking with the 19" for now until he has reason to believe otherwise. What he's done is showed us the different scenarios, some are extreme others are not. He never said we are going to get 50+ inches of snow, just that our weather pattern is very similar to a year they did received 58" of snow.  You cannot blame him for changing his prediction and making an excuse when he hasn't.

Now I am not a supporter of making excuses when changing forecasts, and I believe that they were wrong last weekend. Yes the NWS predicted more snow, but the storm before it the NWS predicted we'd get above freezing ;) Point is the weather changes and is next to impossible to accurately predict all the time (unless you are in California). If you have to change the forecast it’s understandable, excuses aren't. Tell us what you think is going to happen, if the LRC has a hiccup, fine, try to figure out why.  I really don't want an excuse. While I'm on this subject, please don't gloat about predicting far in advance. Not saying that you do, but it’s a huge turnoff. I heard someone else say back in November that we were going to have a cold Thanksgiving just as that had been predicting for weeks. That was all I caught before changing the channel. In other words, all I want for Christmas is a humble forecast.

Now with the 59-60 year, I think it fascinating, I highly doubt we'll get that much snow, but I sure wouldn't complain. Regardless, keep us posted. I love reading your incite and seeing a little "behind the scenes" weather forecasting. Let’s hope for a white winter :)
December 18, 2007 1:37 PM
 

nastyweather said:

f00dl3 where do you get your historical data from?  That's a pretty crazy comparison you have there.  There may be something to this after all, especially if even more similarities continue to show themselves.  I would love a good foot of snow, but I'm not sure the KC Metro could even function if we have a foot of snow.  Heck 435, 70, 35, etc. are all jacked up with only a few inches of snow.  Anyway, it's pure speculation at this point, so nothing to get worked up for.
December 18, 2007 1:40 PM
 

Barbara said:

What an interesting comparison you've found, Gary, between 59/60 and this year.  It'll be fun to look back and see just how alike our winters will be.  I'm seriously hoping that we're much less snowy this winter, but I know all of the snow bunnies out there will be thrilled if we do manage to get 50+ inches of snow.  It would absolutely make for some interesting scrapbook pages, if nothing else. :)
December 18, 2007 1:45 PM
 

Brent said:

Hey Gary,

do you know when was the last time KCI or downtown got a foot of snow?

thanks.
December 18, 2007 1:47 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Didn't we receive our biggest snowfall total in 24 hours in March 1912?

Kristi
December 18, 2007 1:49 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Well, I sure hope for more than 19" !! How about 58" in a span of 7 days? Over you head kinda snow!!
December 18, 2007 1:49 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I wish that there was a lot more research done on this and the LRC.  It would be real interesting to see the data.

Kristi
December 18, 2007 1:53 PM
 

Brent said:

Move to Canada or Boston for that Andrew.

lol   ; )
December 18, 2007 1:54 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Here's some historical snowfall information for Kansas City:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/eax/events/dec072005/kcsnow.php

Kristi
December 18, 2007 1:58 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

andrew,

over your head snow at 58"? are you 4'10"?
December 18, 2007 2:03 PM
 

f00dl3 said:

December 18, 2007 2:03 PM
 

Scott said:

Flurr,

Let me take a stab at this one...

"While I'm on this subject, please don't gloat about predicting far in advance."

As I have been guilty of this before, I feel compelled to comment on this.  There is a difference between gloating and informing.  I have seen both instances of it, and been guilty of both.  I think it is important to note, while if done constantly, it is annoying, but if done on occasion to raise awareness, I think it is valid - but only valid if done to inform and share, opposed to bragging or gloating.

I learned the hard way on this as for every one forecast I get right, I have surely gotten another one wrong.  

From a blogging perspective, I have taken the step of seperating my forecasts out of this blog [unless specifically asked]; and it has been a positive step, as it will allow further discussion and or learning in a different forum more related to those specifics.  And..does not distract from the content of this blog.

When media meteorologists in town brag or make claims like that, it is for a different reason, I think, and it is to serve the purpose of gaining viewership or just to bolster an active ego.

Be it other meteorologists in town or even amateurs such as myself - I agree it can be sour if done with the wrong intent.
December 18, 2007 2:08 PM
 

Brent said:

"andrew,

over your head snow at 58"? are you 4'10"?"

ROFL!!!!


"Here's some historical snowfall information for Kansas City:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/eax/events/dec072005/kcsnow.php

Kristi"


thats not very impressive...lol 12 hour total record at 8 inches?...
and the biggest snowstorm in december was only 12 inches...and it was like...over 75 years ago...

the march storm was not bad....but it was in 1912?.....butler saw 25 inches of snow last year in just one storm...

not too impressive....
December 18, 2007 2:16 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

WOW, sounds to good to be true, well I'm just going to take it one week at a time!!
I can't even imagine what that much snow would be like, to me it would be a dream.

----------------------

Nick,

Maybe the ball did land in the right spot, but we won't really know until another few weeks go by.

Gary

December 18, 2007 2:18 PM
 

Brent said:

thanks for that site f00dl3!

thats awesome...we had snow in may...and snow in October!
December 18, 2007 2:19 PM
 

MTongate said:

Not sure if anyone put this in the blog or said anything about it but just thought it was funny to read. Again not trying to start up a bashing party................

Well, until Saturday, we are into a fast moving...fairly disorganized and transitory pattern. This week is the beginning of a broad scale pattern change back toward some very mild air...that I think should be in form control of our pattern by the first days of 2008. The stubborn polar vortex over eastern Canada, that has been dominating the pattern since Thanksgiving...will finally relent to a strengthening Pacific stream...and a very strong flow across the north Atlantic. The Pacific vortex will likely take over for January...which could turn very very warm in comparison to normal. The "heart of winter" when the average highs and lows are at their lowest of the year...runs from January 10th thru the 16th, when the average high is 35, and the average low is 17. So some days in the 50s (maybe even some 60s) will skew the actual averages quite a bit! And I think that's where January is heading. I also noticed tonight, that the westward extent of the warm sea surface temperature anamolies in the Pacific..have eroded a bit...signaling a slight weakening in the La Nina. There is no indication it will vanish soon...but I think it may have hit its peak, and the long range La Nina forecasts may be a bit too aggressive. There is an eastward drift of warmer water temperatures through the central Pacific...heading toward our west coast....and that may strengthen the zonal Pacific flow as we go into January and February. I am not 100% certain, but I would not be surprised if we have not already been through our coldest stretch of this winter season. We may not get another really cold stretch until sometime later in February, when he days are getting longer, and if much of the snow pack disappears between now and then...the late February chill may be more short lived than the last 27 days we've just gone through. Again, I am not certain about this...but feel that is a strong possibility to consider.
December 18, 2007 2:20 PM
 

johnmarr said:

flurr the part im upset about is the series of storms major ice very likely70 persent likely major snow storm 2 inches he misses all and gives himself a grade of a b i personally i think d would be closer to right granted someone close by got these storms but close by is not what we expect from gary i think if he is going to the weather leader we should all get a better forecast  and when he misses not to try to convince all of us that he was right on just man up and admit he missed it we will forgive him
December 18, 2007 2:24 PM
 

Brent said:

yeah thats the second time he mentioned that we may have already experienced the coldest part of the winter....lol

he said it on air too...and sounded a little more sure..
December 18, 2007 2:25 PM
 

Scott said:

Yuck, if I wanted to read that, I know where to get it.
December 18, 2007 2:29 PM
 

Barbara said:

johnmarr...seriously, I'm not trying to be mean but could you use punctuation when you post?  It would make your posts much easier to read.  :)
December 18, 2007 2:31 PM
 

Scott said:

Barbara..I had to re-read your request..first, I thought you were referring to what MT posted.

LOL...LOL...LOL

----------------------

Scott,

I only have a minute, but I was thinking that this similar pattern in 1959-60 only solidifies our thoughts on the LRC.  One of the biggest skeptical views is that there is no one pattern that cycles all season, and that it changes a few times as we move into January, and again in spring/summer, etc.  This is just another example of a pattern that sets up and just repeats over and over again......the LRC!  That year just had some similarities to this one.

Gary

December 18, 2007 2:33 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Where does this "stuff" come from?  Can you provide a link or someway to research without bashing the person who wrote it?  Regardless I would like to know who it was.
December 18, 2007 2:33 PM
 

Brent said:

I have noticed that about quite a few members....no offense of course...but it is very hard to decipher...lol...I use (.......) to indicate a pause or period...I think it adds a nice effect.. plus it indicates when I am pausing.

------------------

I don't even know what you guys are talking about, and we don't have time today.  It sounds like you are all not out of control.  LOL

Gary

December 18, 2007 2:36 PM
 

Brent said:

"  nastyweather said:
Where does this "stuff" come from?  Can you provide a link or someway to research without bashing the person who wrote it?  Regardless I would like to know who it was. "


I could.....but is it allowed?.......
December 18, 2007 2:37 PM
 

Barbara said:

LOL, Scott!  I was going to say something about what MT posted, but decided against it.  :)
December 18, 2007 2:44 PM
 

Barbara said:

Brent, I use "..."  all of the time!  Probably my favorite for of punctuation.
December 18, 2007 2:46 PM
 

Barbara said:

Okay...that should have been "form" and not "for"  LOL!
December 18, 2007 2:46 PM
 

Brent said:

"I don't even know what you guys are talking about, and we don't have time today.  It sounds like you are all not out of control.  LOL

Gary"

we were talking about punctuations..lol


"Barbara said:
Brent, I use "..."  all of the time!  Probably my favorite for of punctuation. "


yes I use it excessively....lol I just type a sentence...then add some dots.....then I type another....and add some more ......its so fun...its actually a habit now...I do it absentmindedly

lol
kind of like lol huh?...I use that excessively also...weird...

December 18, 2007 2:51 PM
 

johnmarr said:

sorry abut the punctuation but wreckin you all get my point im just a dumb ol construction woker
December 18, 2007 2:51 PM
 

MTongate said:

Sorry people I just could not resist the last post I made, I mean it really IRKS me to read the other guys stuff . I m just a gluttin for punishment though.  :)
December 18, 2007 2:55 PM
 

Brent said:

"sorry abut the punctuation but wreckin you all get my point im just a dumb ol construction woker"

I want to become a construction worker....I do want to be good at spelling though...I am pretty good already though...I just make some typos here and there...I'm always in a hurry.
December 18, 2007 2:57 PM
 

Adam Penney said:

Gary,
  Earlier this morning i blogged about a "station" already predicting specific precip amounts for this weekends storm already TODAY. I was commenting on what another blogger had stated right before me. Here is what she said, as stated below.


Emmysmom said

I'm very anxious to see the new data for this weekend, as one of the other stations this morning said Saturday into Sunday and possibly 3 inches.  Here's hoping that Gary comes out and says that the storm is missing us and heading down south.  : )


I do not know specifically what "station" she is speaking of, however, I am sure it was not NBC 41. I was not speaking about you, your team, or your station at all. Just merely the fact that ANY station would care to predict about precip type/amounts about a storm that has yet to be even discovered correctly by the models.

Im sorry if i offended you. That was not my intention....
December 18, 2007 2:57 PM
 

kellyann said:

MT...We know who you are talking about Im sure! Let's just hope the lil East Coast AirHead don't turn into another Tornado Sally, along with the 3 guys she works with!  Im not bashing anyone either ok!!!
December 18, 2007 2:58 PM
 

Barbara said:

Now, johnmarr...why would you call yourself dumb?  That's just silly.  

MT...you should only read that stuff when you need a good laugh.  :)  It'll warp your mind if you read it too often!
December 18, 2007 3:00 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

johnmarr....be nice to yourself. I could not do your job if my life depended on it. We all are given talents in life...you are in construction and mine is in needles, catheters and drains. I may have a college education but I can tell you for a fact I have horrid grammer and spelling. I had to learn to compensate ...and thank god for spell check. LOL!!! Have a good day and it was nice to see you post a entry.
Monica
Pleasanton
December 18, 2007 3:04 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Whoops! Everybody would need more than 58",except for the children,where are my math skills today?
December 18, 2007 3:05 PM
 

sierra said:

Your hypothesis about long term cycles associated with La Nina is also interesting because  in La Nina years, there is a greater likelihood that there will be more tropical storms/hurricanes and storms will create more damage (higher winds - tighter systems or lower pressures.).   Even though these years have a greater number of storms  and strength of storms, each year is unique making every season difficult to predict. Sound familiar?. While the sources of the storms are certainly different your LRC theory raises some questions about the possible relationship between upwellings and sea surface temperature anomalies and  longer, possibly predictable, cycles elsewhere on the planet. Interesting!
December 18, 2007 3:06 PM
 

Brent said:

"  kellyann said:
MT...We know who you are talking about Im sure! Let's just hope the lil East Coast AirHead don't turn into another Tornado Sally, along with the 3 guys she works with!  Im not bashing anyone either ok!!! "

whats this?....it sounds like someone  implying something about someone?.....and I still haven't secured who this "tornado Sally" is I have some ideas.....but I think its mean to give people titles like that...I mean you can critisize their forecasts...but lets try not to give them names....or at least I won't
December 18, 2007 3:07 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Back to weather everybody,

So, Does anybody think the chance of a White Christmas will go up to a 10% or stay a 5%?
December 18, 2007 3:08 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Was the ICE Accumulation for '02 1"-3"?
December 18, 2007 3:10 PM
 

Brent said:

I think Gary will put it up to a  10% just to tease us...but I think its pretty much impossible for us to have a white Christmas at this point.
December 18, 2007 3:11 PM
 

Adam Penney said:

Andrew,

I think 10% is a good level right now. It could easily go up in the coming days as the data becomes more concrete.
December 18, 2007 3:12 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

At least some snow on the ground would be nice. of course maybe I should pray that the South East gets a great Christmas present... RAIN!
December 18, 2007 3:15 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I agree that Gary goes no more than 10% on his percentage for a white Christmas on tonight's newscast if he goes up from the 5%.  Did you know that the overall percentage for a white Christmas is 25%??

Kristi
December 18, 2007 3:25 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Yes, the southeast could use all the rain it can get.  There's a severe drought going on there.

Kristi
December 18, 2007 3:26 PM
 

PK in LS said:

I wonder if Irving Berlin knew what he was doing when he wrote White Christmas.  
December 18, 2007 3:32 PM
 

kellyann said:

The way things look now, it will stay at 5%...Brent, I was not giving anyone a name, I did not name Tornado Sally...As for East Coast Airhead, I gave her that name only because she knows I did, afterall, we are friends!!
December 18, 2007 3:35 PM
 

GaryB said:

Barry, our largest seasonal snowfall occured during the winter of 78-79 with 33.4".
December 18, 2007 3:45 PM
 

shoedog said:

Does the trend away from a storm mean no storm to the North as well?  I am travelling up to Iowa, planning on Saturday morning right now, but will change to Friday Night if I need to.

Thanks
December 18, 2007 3:48 PM
 

nwmowx said:

It is completely, 1000% disgraceful that people come onto a WEATHER blog and diss the weather PEOPLE.  Discuss and criticize the FORECASTS all you want, but these little nicknames you people have come up with are not even remotely cute.  Because I am a student of the weather, I read and learn from everything I can.  That means every weather blog I know of.  Nobody knows it all.  Gary is not God...neither are his "competitors."  It gets tiresome trying to sift through all of the jibberish on here about tornado sally, east coast airhead and how perfect Gary is while everybody else sucks, etc...to find weather information.  Those names are unnecessary and cruel.  I find it amazing that Gary condones this type of behavior on his WEATHER BLOG.  Yes, I have seen half-hearted requests from the mets to "keep it civil."  That lasts until the next post, then it's off to the races again.  It's ridiculous!
December 18, 2007 3:49 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Thanks for the info. Thats definitly great news for me. I would just hate for it not to snow very much. one thing that bugs me is before I started watching NBC Action News, I watched other stations and listened to the local radio and they would predict like 8-10" and we would only get a dusting.  The NBC Action News weather team has done a great job in predicting the weather. In the past 3 years of me watching you I can only remember your forcast models being off by no more than 3"......I hope we get a lot of snow....Keep up the good work.
December 18, 2007 3:50 PM
 

GaryB said:

Well said nwmowx  -  but isn't that a "cute" name?   Otherwise, your right on.
December 18, 2007 3:52 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Not trying to dis any other stations though, because i know that they are trying their best.
December 18, 2007 3:54 PM
 

GaryB said:

I remember the days before computer and even weather radar.  How'd those guys do it?  They had a barometer, a thermometer and an aneometer.    They had hand drawn charts from the NWS.  
It's just amazing how with all the technical stuff available, we still have a hard time getting it right.
December 18, 2007 3:56 PM
 

egerrity said:

I completely agree with nwmowx. Bagging on others isn't necessary.
December 18, 2007 4:07 PM
 

nwmowx said:

GaryB--what do you mean? My name is cute? If nwmowx, which =northwest missouri weather is cute, then I guess so.  Otherwise, you have lost me?
December 18, 2007 4:10 PM
 

radman22 said:

Even with all the newest tools to help forecast, mother nature will always have the final say.    Gary uses more of his instincts than any other weather guy I have seen and it pays off.    His nowcasting and the info we share in this blog is the real value during stormy weather that seperates them from the rest.  

I would say with his latest update, no way he goes up to 10% tonight unless he is just teasing us and Elizabeth.
December 18, 2007 4:12 PM
 

Zazel said:

I can't speak as to whether or not Irving Berlin knew what he was doing when he wrote White Christmas, but the November/December issue of Weatherwise has an article in it called 'Dreaming of a White Christmas'.  Apparently Berlin wrote the song while he was lounging near a pool in sunny Arizona on Christmas vacation.  The article also talks about why Charles Dickens may have described a White Christmas so often in his works.  He was born at the tail end of the Little Ice Age and six out of his first nine Christmases were white.  After that only three more White Christmases occurred in his lifetime.  Since 1900, London has had only three White Christmases.

As with most things, it seems location and time period have an affect on how you view events.
December 18, 2007 4:12 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I remember the weather maps that had the sun, the clouds, etc.  They were stuck up on a board with a map of the US.  It's amazing how far weather forecasting has come.

Kristi
December 18, 2007 4:13 PM
 

kellyann said:

Yes Kristi, I remember those weather maps also...Dan Henry and and the Broski guy, they were great! I think forcasting weather back then was a lot more simple because they did not have all of the equipement that they do now.
December 18, 2007 4:20 PM
 

kellyann said:

nwmowx....relax!! No one is attacking you or anyone. My good friend happens to be one of those I was talking about, along with 2 of the other guys she works with and they know how I feel about the weather predictions they do and they agree a lot of the times, why do you think there are two of them that dont Blog on their site? I really dont know who and why someone named a gal Tornado Sally...If you met her and talked to her, everyone would have a different take on her , believe me!.
December 18, 2007 4:24 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I was thinking of those two as I was typing my post.
 
Kristi
December 18, 2007 4:24 PM
 

radman22 said:

I agree with Scotts earlier comment from yesterday about not watching the other stations.   Why would you?   I know its fun to compare, but by now, its not even close.   If I want to be spooked about a storm 5 days out, I can dream about it.   I happened to catch one of the stations a few days ago in the background and the head honcho said that we would warm up the rest of December and a good part of Jan.  He even claimed Jan would be record warmth.     I just shook my head and wonder how this guy can put himself out there so much without taking any responsibility when it goes bust.    

Thank you Gary for doing your best and not trying to sensationalize just for ratings

Joe
December 18, 2007 4:27 PM
 

Emmysmom said:

I never knew so many people could be so "passionate" about weather, until I came here.
December 18, 2007 4:30 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Oh no the NWS has a 60% chance of SNOW for Saturday, they've ruined it for us.  Unfortunately the latest GFS looks BORING, but it's only Tuesday.
December 18, 2007 4:31 PM
 

Scott said:

nwmowx,

"...how perfect Gary is while everybody else sucks..."  I suspect you haven't been reading this blog long or in the last two weeks.  I believe Gary has gotten his fair of criticism.  I know this to be true as I have given quite a bit.

This blog seems to be multifunctional to reach the interest of a greater set of interests.  At times we talk about vegetation as it relates to storms, we talk about special events, and other things.  It is a community weather blog.  

Perhaps if you are only interested in "weather information", you should either filter through the entries that are not of your interest or just focus on the main entries.  

To come in and rant about the behavior of others is paradoxical.
December 18, 2007 4:31 PM
 

kellyann said:

Scott, I agree with you 100%. I have not only learned about weather on this blog, but about how to take care of plants and trees during a freeze, what chemicals can harm the vegetation and animals, and of interesting things that have happened or going to happen around the city!! This blog can really broaden a persons mind!
December 18, 2007 4:35 PM
 

flurr said:

Scott – agreed. But do remember I wasn’t talking about Gary or anyone from this station. It was just a pet peeve that I have.

johnmarr, I also agree with that. The last 2 storms the forecasts have gone sour in the late hours, and like I said, I hate excuses. But for the long range forecasts, they are going to change, and all I want, and I think I can speak for most of us, is that we are informed to the best of their ability. When the forecast changes I could care less about what they said in the past, it becomes irrelevant. If you say it’s going to be sunny in 2 days, then the next day you say it’s going to be raining then it turns out sunny you can’t go back and say that you predicted it to be sunny.

Weather is a tough subject, it’s hard to predict, and honestly I think you do a good job. I’m not going to say that Gary is the best, nor am I going to say that the rest of the meteorologists here in kc are crap. But I do appreciate what Gary is doing and I *think* he is the best we have in KC. The forecasts tend to be good, the blog is great, and things like the LRC and going back looking at historic weather phenomena is a nice extra touch. I firmly believe that weather can repeat itself beyond what the models show, and that using history to help predict the weather is a strong tool, one that not everyone uses. So for this grading scheme, yeah I’d give them a poor grade fro the last 2 storms, we’ll give them a makeup test later in January ;) But overall, I’d give them an A and an A++++++ if we get 58” of snow this winter, regardless of what he predicts!

----------------

I agree! 50" of snow and everyone gets an A+.  But, if we get our forecast of 19" I only could get a C then!  Shoot.

Have a great evening.

Gary

December 18, 2007 4:36 PM
 

Scott said:

sierra,

You had a very interesting post..and because of my second passion of the tropics, I have a couple thoughts...

"Even though these years have a greater number of storms  and strength of storms, each year is unique making every season difficult to predict"

While La Nina lends itself to a reduction of sheer potential in the Atlantic as well as having a slight influence on SST, I am not sure I would fully agree with your assessment.  Take this year as an example.  Throughout the summer into the fall, we progressed further into a La Nina event, yet this year was no more than normal, and I would argue the strength was not influenced.

I do appreciate your overall thought as how the SST anomolies and other features should contribute to the greater whole.  I have gone round and round with Gary on this since 2005 in and out of this blog.  I believe there is a large influence as how it sets up each years patterns, even to the extent that the LRC cycles are tied to the hurricane seasons.  I don't have proof, thus in light of everything else I am researching, I have put this on the back burner.

I do think there is a tie between the PNA, the hurricane season, and the LRC...but need more time to document it out.
December 18, 2007 4:39 PM
 

sierra said:

Scott,

I appreciate your views as I am a novice not only at the LRC but at the weather in this part of country.

You are correct in identifying the error in my statement. I should have said. " ...these years have a higher probability that there will be a greater number of storms...."

As for this year's hurricane season, it becomes interesting is why there are exceptions to the broad application of La Nina and El Nino in forecasting. Larger cyclic patterns that we just haven't discovered as yet, smaller scale factors...who knows? Good hypotheses and testing of theories like the LRC might just give us insight that might be applicable elsewhere.


Keep us posted on your findings.






December 18, 2007 5:52 PM
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