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The LRC, Breezy & Stormy, & a warming trend...updated

Hey NBC Action Weather bloggers,

Happy New Year from the NBC Action Weather Team!  We hope you had a great holiday season.  I will be going into extensive detail today on what we believe to be this year's LRC, and I will be making a forecast based on what we now know.  This forecast will be a 45 day long prognostication into what we think will happen between now and the middle of February.  But, first, here are my two favorite pictures from the past week.  We had forecast a 55% chance of a white Christmas before I left on vacation, and we also precicted three snowstorms during the last 10 days of the year and all of them happened. 

This first picture shows Breezy (with the evil eyes) and Stormy enjoying the huge snowflakes at 4 AM on December 28th.  We had gone on a three mile walk in the snow.  They love it!  We had over one inch in that 4 to 5 AM hour.

 

This second picture, below, shows Stormy & Breezy on an ice foggy morning one day later. 

We had 6 snowstorms in our local region since December 1st.  And, we had a very heavy rain event, a major ice storm, and more.  It has been an absolutely fascinating winter season thus far, and the worst of winter is still ahead of us!  The coldest air of the season will be building in Canada during the next 15 days and it is going to come down and affect us, but when?  Let's talk about it.

THE LRC.......What is it?

For those of you new to NBC Action News and our weather blog, the LRC will be new to you.  It is a theory, and I  believe a major discovery in meteorology, that I have come up with in the past 20 years.  It was named by you, the bloggers!  LRC stands for Lezak's Recurring Cycle.  There are two main parts to my theory:

1.  "Long term" longwave troughs and ridges become established between October 1st and November 10th.  These longwaves will help define the storm tracks for, not just the winter, but from October through winter, spring, and the next summer, until the pattern morphs, transitions into a unique pattern again next fall.

2.  The weather pattern cycles and repeats over and over again.  The first cycle likely begins in October.  Once the weather pattern starts repeating, then we can "know" it better and begin making accurate long range predicitons.  We have been making these accurate predictions the past two years, some call it coincidence when our forecasts have come through.  But, last year we accurately predicted "the storm" to return every 45 days or so.  And, we predicted the killing April freeze weeks ahead of time, while other forecasts had predicted winter to be over.  Not only did we have the very bad freeze but "the storm" also returned right on schedule with a rare mid April snowstorm

LRC 2007-2008

We, at this moment, believe that we are in a 54 day cycle this year.  This was found in the first two weeks of December, when we noticed the October storm systems repeating.  If you look back in our blog entries from October, we were anticipating those big, wet storm systems to return, but we just weren't sure when.   And, now we "know" that they will be coming back and soon.  The series of 4 storm systems that happened from December 1st through December 21st will likely return between January 24th and February 15th.  We will  have our long range forecast, all the way through mid February, at the end of this entry when I get it prepared later today.

The warming trend moving in right now is right on schedule with this repeating pattern.  Look below at the weather map on November 10th, 2007 (54 days from January 3rd).  This is directly related to what is happening right now. 

On the above map, 54 days ago tomorrow, the jet stream was strong over the Pacific and moving in with a ridge heading out into the plains.  This is what is forecast to happen this week and the warm up is right on schedule.  But, the worst of winter is ahead of us as we can see what to expect in the next two to three weeks below.  This next map is from November 22nd.  This would be happening within 12 days and it begins the part of the cycle that should allow the coldest air of the season to build in Canada and then it will likely blast into the United States between January 15th and 25th.  Before this happens we should have one more cold shot and one more warm up.  Then it is back to a long stretch of winter, the coldest air of the season, and likely a few snowstorms that will be bigger, more widespread, and possibly record breaking.  The most likely spot for the record breaking snow will be across the same areas that have been getting hit thus far, from Topeka to St. Joseph to the Iowa border. 

Look at the map below.  This is the part of the pattern that will bring cross polar flow (crossing the North Pole) and then dropping all the way down the west coast.  This occurred on November 30, 2007.  So, add 54 days to this and it will be returning around January 23rd, give or take a few days.  For those of you skeptics of this theory, is it just going to be a coincidence when these parts of the weather pattern return?  Remember, the air across Canada will be getting colder and colder over the next two weeks.  And, the coldest weather of this winter is likely between January 15th and February 15th.

The series of four storm systems is then also likely right after the coldest air arrives later in January.   So, with a very cold air mass in place and a series of storm systems moving across you can see why I make the conclusion that our biggest winter storms will likely occur during that 30 day stretch from mid January to mid February. 

Now remember part 1 to my theory.  The "long term" longwave ridges and troughs are established, and not budging through this winter, spring and even into summer.  Whether you believe in the cycle part of my theory or not, you can not deny the fact that the weather pattern has been producing consistent storm systems and strengthening and weakening in similar spots all season long.  One of these "long term" longwave troughs is centered near the middle of Missouri.  This is why storm systems seem to intensify right near Kansas City.  We can use our theory to look back, look forward, and make accurate predictions, not just in the longer range, but also as storm systems approach in the shorter term.  The LRC has continued to provide us with a huge forecasting advantage over our competition and the National Weather Service.  I am laying it out there for them all to see as I do believe this is a major discovery and we will continue working on this in the next few years until we come up with even more proof, evidence, etc.

For those of you wanting to criticize our winter forecast issued in November, well, go ahead.  Remember, we make that forecast before we know the cycle length.  There is still a lot of uncertainty at that time, but we make that forecast based on part 1 of the theory, the "long term" longwaves.  I didn't anticipate this much cold air.  So, the forecast may be off, we'll look at that at the end of the season, but this says nothing about whether the LRC exists.  It certainly does, in our opinion.  Just watch as we move through the rest of this season.

45 day forecast issued January 2nd:

January 3-15th:  There will be two big warming stretches that could put us up into the 60s a couple of days.  But, it will be broken up by two storm systems.  One of the storms will arrive around January 8th-9th.  This one will produce some rain and possibly some snow, but it is a storm that will intensify as it passes us.  The second storm will arrive around January 12th -15th.  This one could come as a very cold air mass is moving in from Canada.

January 15th-25th:

Arctic air will build in strength across Canada.  It will be the coldest air of this entire winter up there with temperatures possibly down to 40 degrees below zero or even lower.  A couple of strong Arctic fronts will move through Kansas City and the United States should go into the deep freeze before the end of the month.

January 25th -February 20th:

The series of wet and strong storm systems that affected us in October and again in December will return.  I think they will be even stronger this time.  And, the Arctic air will be around for each of the storm systems.  We will have at least 4, and perhaps as many as 7 storm systems between January 25th and February 20th.

This is how we see the pattern cycling right now.  This is a long range projection, based on the LRC.  We believe this is around a 54 day cycle.  So, this all will repeat again with the stormy and wet part of the pattern returning in the second half of March.  Another Arctic air mass is likely then, so watch out for a grand finale to this crazy winter before spring truely shows up.  Some parts of our viewing area could easily get close to 50 inches of snow this winter.

Gary

 

Published Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:11 AM by glezak

Comments

 

MTongate said:

Gary great blog and can't wait for the end of Jan...... MT

--------

Michael,

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Gary

January 2, 2008 7:37 AM
 

Mark M said:

Happy New Year first.  Fantastic blog Gary!  I am looking forward to your forecast for the next 45 days.  I wonder what your thoughts are on the new snow forecast - can't wait to see.
January 2, 2008 7:43 AM
 

sertorius said:

Gary:

Welcome back!!! You come back with a bang not a wimper LOL!!! What an awesome blog this morning!! Fantastic stuff!!

I threw out some random musings in the previous entry so will leave it at that and I wasn't going to post again (or should I say ramble LOL) but this is just great stuff so I had to say something!! By the way,  are we in a horror movie?? Just when you think it is safe, Jason, Freddie, and Michael are all back and worse than ever LOL

I think, based on your entry that I am keeping score somewhat correctly here at home regarding the LRC-well, at least I think I am LOL-my musings may be a way off but I think I am on the right track!!!

Bottomed out here at about 6 degrees in SW Lawrence-my guess is that the official reading will be lower since it is taken at the airport which is a good 12 miles North East of me and a bit more rural-but it is for sure cold this morning!!

Have a great day and again welcome back!!! Once more: awesome blog this morning!!! Graet stuff indeed!!!!

Bill in Lawrence
----------------

Bill,

Thanks, I had been writing the entry for a while, and so I haven't read your other entry yet.  I will do it now!

Gary


January 2, 2008 7:47 AM
 

Sammieliberty said:

Gary!  Hope you had some great time off!!
Thanks for explaining the LRC again....I've been on this blog for about a year and a half but every time you explain it, I understand it more because of what I learn as I continue to be a part of this blog.  
Oh, by the way, there were many nay-sayers at my Starbucks a few weeks ago....they made fun of me and my dedication to you and the weather team.....well, now most of them have said they are now looking to you for their forecast!  They now ask me what to expect when a storm is approaching :-) because they know I'm on this blog.  
They still think I'm a bit of a freak about all of this, but now it is useful to them :-)
You're the BEST!! (oh, and by the way, Jeremy is doing an outstanding job!!  His post after the last big storm was amazing!  You have found a GREAT team member that truly compliments what you are all about!)
Have a fantastic day!
Sam in Liberty

------------------

Sam,

Thanks, and I am sure Jeremy will be reading this on his days off!  Brett and Jeremy did an outstanding job tracking the Christmas week winter weather. 

We are so glad you are enjoying the blog, and sharing accurate forecasts with others.  When they watch the other sources for weather I can see how they come across with the typical attitude towards weather forecasters.  We are trying to change that image!  Thank you for helping!

Gary

January 2, 2008 7:56 AM
 

pkhartz said:

This was great.  This is the way to teach us about weather, not during severe weather with tornado's flying around.  And I could totally understand your lingo.  In our home the line after a weather forecast, from other sources, is that it doesn't really count unless it's Gary's and channel 41.  

---------------

Wow!  Thank you so much.  Have a great day.  I am looking forward to the warm up this week, but bracing for what will likely happen soon.

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:17 AM
 

beckysma said:

Great blog, Gary.  Welcome back!
January 2, 2008 8:20 AM
 

kwalls said:

Gary,
Welcome back hope your vacation was as relaxing as mine. What a fantastic post you made, as always we blogers can take this to heart and for those nay sayers we can just continue to make little wagers and win. I thank you for all the free coffee you have helped me earn this past year, and already this year I have additional coffee waiting for me at work. Keep up the great work.

------------------

Try to spread your coffee out!  Happy New Year!

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:33 AM
 

johnmarr said:

outstsanding blog gary very imformative so you think we could record breaking snows am i correct
January 2, 2008 8:43 AM
 

siraluce said:

Since, based on your outlook, we may be in for a particularly active winter, not to mention spring and summer, how about also a new way of coming up with KC metro area precipitation statistics (in addition to using KCI as the official KC point) and then comparing the result.  This might be a good forum on which to try that, as you have people from all over the metro calling in with snowfall amounts.  

I would suggest averaging amounts from MCI (KCI), MKC (downtown airport), OTH (Johnson County Executive) and LXT (Lee's Summit airport).  We could use one more site in the northeast, say in Liberty, to round it out, but there is no reporting airport there.  Certain people that live reasonably close to those sites could perhaps call in their snowfall/precipitation amounts, too.  For instance, I live 3 miles west of MKC, so if nobody is closer, you could use my snowfall amounts as an approximation of what snow falls at MKC.  

Then the amounts could be averaged and it could be seen how far the average differs from the KCI amount in each storm and also month to month.

It might not be 'scientific' but it might be interesting to see the result.

Just an idea..
January 2, 2008 8:47 AM
 

nikieis said:

welcome back and happy new year gary! i really liked the blog, it is very interesting  about the LRC and i am glad you are willing to explain it more to us. you are the only ones i trust for my weather.
i already cant wait to see the end of jan and start of feb.

--------------

This pattern will likely have a couple of storm systems before we get to the exciting part of the pattern.

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:49 AM
 

Holmes524 said:

Gary welcome back.  Thank you for the wonderful blog and great pictures of the dogs.  Thanks to the LRC I realize what we will be looking for in mid Jan-Feb, but I am already looking ahead to the repeating cycle in March and May.  
Will you be having another bloggers meeting?  
Thanks for all you and the weather team do.  

-------------

We haven't planned our next blogger meeting at this time. But, we are thinking about it.

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:50 AM
 

frigate said:

Gary,

I hope both M-Dot and K-Dot read this blog and watch your forecasts..so they will be better prepared for what lies ahead. It still baffles me how people can like this kind of weather but at least next Friday I get to head down to Florida for a couple of weeks, hopefully before the next big winter storm hits.    

Glad you had a good vacation and glad your back!!!

Jeff
January 2, 2008 8:54 AM
 

f00dl3 said:

Think Kansas City will get any good snows (8"+) out of the pattern or will those be confined to St. Joe / Topeka / Atchison

---------------------

I think I mentioned this in the blog.  I expect the next cycle through to have a strong potential for a more widespread heavy snow event.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:08 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Gary I hope you caught up on some needed R & R on your vacation, because the fun is just beginning.  Maybe we should all chip in a couple bucks to keep the weather team stocked with cases of energy drinks to keep you going through all of this?

--------------------

When the storm systems are moving through there is so much of an adrenaline rush that we don't need the energy drinks.  It is when the pattern is boring that we need the supply, but thanks for the thoughts!  And, yes, I am all caught up and rested.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:11 AM
 

Scott said:

siraluce - sounds familiar...lol.  It would give a better view for sure in my opinion...


Gary - "The first cycle likely begins in October".  Ha.  "Likely" You are softening.  By the end of the year, this statement will be different again.

The cycle lives, no doubt about it.  I think the biggest challenge ahead is assimilating the data to further illistrate the proof and working on better ways to communicate this cycle.  To date, you have done ok..but with a singular focus of just a map.  Ongoing, much like you did with the intern, as you see other ways to measure the cycle [um..surface?], then you will have a much better platform to explain the cycle from top to bottom.

Nice entry...I am awaiting the critique.  Since the cycle is there, the only real critique that should come is likely in the way the cycle is measured or communicated.

Those are easy to fix.

-------------------------

Scott,

I am not budging, really.  We have noticed in the past few years the pattern in October does repeat and is likely when the new cycle begins.  I know you think that the cycle begins earlier than October.  You may be right.  I just haven't seen enough evidence to support this.  And, I haven't really looked that closely at your surface comparison's.  So, give us some time on this possibility.  I still highly doubt that it begins before October.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:16 AM
 

Brett34 said:



Gary,

 Wow, I was not expecting a bad winter this year.  I spoke with one person last September who firmly believed it would be a bad winter, even though what they had to say, I couldn't see it, or better yet couldn't imagine it.   But now that you  are forecasting it, I believe it now.  Not holding you to it, but if it comes from you, it's pretty much a given. 99.9% if not 100.  Your LRC is amazing, the entire teams enthusiasm when forecasting on the air, are top notch.  You guys are so accurate, you seem not to forcecast the weather, but control it!  Seriously!  I have followed the LRC for about two years and find it absolutely amazing and very real.  It is very apparent to me, that the LRC exists.  I don't see how anyone could say that it does not, im not even close to an expert, but anyone who follows the weather should be able to see your theory and not even question it.  I know you guys are still figuring it out, but what you do have figured out is great.  So I'm excited for the rest of the winter, nice for a change.  Have a good day team LRC!

--------------------

Thanks, and your last point is very important.  "So, I'm excited for the rest of the winter, nice for a change".  Yes!  It is rare that we actually have a good weather pattern for the winter.  And, this one should be taken in, and enjoyed by us weather enthusiasts.   It has still been frustrating for those south of KC, but maybe, this next time through will bring a snowstorm their way.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:25 AM
 

homerun said:

Gary welcome back and a great explanation concerning the LRC and the rest of the winter.  I was afraid you would mention Topeka in the main stream of things.  I have been preaching the cycle to several people here in Topeka and they are amazed!   Do you anticipate any more ice storms though?  Our main oaks made it through the past ice storm but I am not sure if they could make it through another bad one.  I would rather deal with the snow.  I know every year is unique but this year has a few similarities to two "La Nina" years where it was supposed to be warm but it ended up being very bad winters here in Kansas 1973-1974 and 1983-1984.   Fascinating.   Whoever says our winters are over need to pay close attention to you!  Thanks, Michael/Berryton/Topeka

-------------------------------

Michael,

I really think this year's weather pattern compares best to 1959-1960.  The "long term" longwave positions seemed to be very close to what this year has seen.

And, icestorms are always tricky.  I have concerns, but we will just have to see how deep the Arctic air is the next time through the cycle.   I hope it is deeper so we can avoid the devastation from an icestorm.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:31 AM
 

RDub said:

I'm glad to see some relatively specific predictions based on LRC. I'm looking forward to the 45 day forecast today. However, one part of this blog did stand out

"that should allow the coldest air of the season to build in Canada and then it will likely blast into the United States between January 15th and 25th"

That's a pretty generic prediction. Climatologically, you expect a big cold Canadian air mass to come down during that 10 day period almost every year. 2006 is the only recent January where that didn't happen.

-----------------

I agree!  If you look at that map from November 30th, that would coincide with Janaury 23rd or so.  That is pretty specific, but it may turn very cold before this part sets up.

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:34 AM
 

Tim in West Shawnee said:

Gary,

I know this will sound like an echo based on the other comments to your blog, but this was a great one.  Very informative.  I love seeing "today's" 500mb map and then going back 54 days and seeing literally the same map.

Picking days for the next cold burst, stormy period, etc. is great, too.  I thought it was funny when "another station" predicted that late December was to be warm.  LOL it sure was!  I have had some form of snow, ice, etc. in my yard and driveway since the beginning of December.  I wonder if it'll all melt over the weekend.  3 days in the 50's might do it but I bet it all won't go away.

Take care,
Tim

--------------

Tim,

Even if most of it melts, it will be exciting when it comes back!

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:58 AM
 

rodney said:

Gary,
I do believe you are as correct as anyone could be. I also have studied weather for years. I believe you have conquered this one. Even with listenining to you faithfully and reading all of your blogs. I told a group of people just recently. This wild stormy weather pattern will continue all winter and into spring. I think you are right that we'll see some of the biggest snow storms to come. Hopefully no big ice storms. I also wonder with this active pattern. What kind of wild spring storms will brew? You guys keep up the great work. For all of the skeptics i will continue defending all of you. For the short term i am looking forward to a little warmer weather and melting before it all returns soon.

Have a great day,
-Rodney

-------------------

Rodney,

Thanks!  I will enjoy this break over the next few days too!

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:04 AM
 

Scott said:

Gary, your response evokes a vision of a odd paradigm.

While many of your critics will site lack of objective proof of your cycle, your response is to "open up" and step outside of normal parameters.  

Time will tell, I know, but I offer another way to show the cycle - but because it challenges your normal and comfortable approach of viewing the cycle, you generally dismiss it  - that of everything being measured and observed at 500mb.

I offer the same to you that you offer your critics.  "Open up" and step outside of your paremeters of this cycle surface analysis.  I have provided the beginning of some strong relational data that in further analysis could easily tie to every map you have.

"I just haven't seen enough evidence to support this.  And, I haven't really looked that closely at your surface comparison's."

I will give you some time..but I would have thought that any data provided that may further strengthen your claims would be quickly investigated and perhaps woven into the fabric of the theory.  I will give it a year to get a year's worth of data...but already in looking at the trends, you can see there is another method.

Scott, I have looked into it, but we only have so much time! I have your information and it will be looked into!


I think perhaps the most difficult part of recognizing the data is that likely some of the principles of the LRC will need to be changed.  That will be hard to do.  

It won't be hard to do at all.  Once we see something that becomes strong enough evidence to change some aspects of the hypothesis, then I will do it.  I just haven't seen it yet.  Gary

I think I have provided some very strong reasoning as to why the cycle starts sooner.  I will revisit just a few...

1.  Because of how the LRC is measured with 500mb charts, due to the weakness of the jet in August and September, it is very difficult to see any features strong enough to consider marking points to serve as a beginning, end or parallel to a prior cycle.  

2.  The upper air ties to the lower air.  The lower air ties to the surface.  Because of the jet pattern, I believe it is fully within reason to assert that in late summer and early fall, while the patterns may not be visible at the 500mb level, you can see ties both at 850 and 925 mbs.  I believe from summer to mid fall - if following just maps- you will see the relationships strengthen from bottom up.  This is to say you will see the cycle at 850mb in late summer, 850 and 700mb in early fall, and 700-500mb in mid fall.  This fully lines up with where you think the cycles begin based on when you can see them.

In addition, the surface observation method is immune to jet location.  This is a big deal.  The LRC cycle is dependant on the relative location of the jet as it relates to forecasting.  The surface observations take this into account as it factors in seasonal averages.  It is this that allows the temp streaks to be independent of jet stream.

Scott,  The surface observations are very tied to the jet stream locations and to what is going on with the upper level flow.  This is what I have been trying to teach to you and explain to you.  In July and August many of the surface features can be shown to be related to the thermal conditions of the day since the jet stream is much farther north.  And, likely not cycling in any fasion.  In the other months of the year as the flow aloft is stronger, the surface is more or less driven by what is going on above!  This is an important factor you keep denying or showing understanding of.  Does this make sense to you?  Gary

3.  I found the surface observation cycle in early September.  I did not look at one map.  I trended surface observations.  The biggest and easiest part of the cycle this year is the part observed in early December and mid October.  I think everyone agrees on that.

I challenge anyone to look 54 days prior to mid October.  Look at the third week in August.  Same precip pattern.  The same.  Other temp and precip patterns exist in that timeframe as well.  That is how I found the cycle so early.  Much earlier than mid December. 

In prior blogs, I have done the same analysis with some of the prominent temp streaks that are cycling as well.

They are visibile back to August and September.

Scott, perhaps so, but I highly doubt it.  Just like our skeptics, I will try to prove this idea of yours to be not true.  If I can do it then we must move on.  If I can't then we will consider it.  This is all I ask of the other skeptics.  Prove the LRC to be untrue.  Believe me, we are working on that part as well.  It just keeps happening every year.  We firmly believe the LRC exists, but your idea for the surface to show the cycle earlier than October is possible, but I still doubt it at this time.  But, I haven't yet really delved into it.  My doubts could be erased or confirmed.

Here is my point, and how I think my research is valid and will strengthen the LRC...

1.  Using surface trending, one will be able to find the cycle sooner.  Proven.  Did it this year.

Scott, proven by whom?  You?  I haven't proven the LRC, and I don't believe you have proven anything either.


2.  You will be able to trend not only upper air flow and longwaves, but have detailed trending information about precip, warm, and cold trends.


3.  You will be able to plot each surface observation to a wave within the cycle using the maps.  Based on this, you will trend, not just one "storm", but many within the cycle.

Gary,
Dunno...seems more than just coincidence..and it is fine if you chooose not to use surface data..but, it is very clear and useful.  Much as you struggle with how your peers cannot open their eyes and see the LRC, I am finding the same paradigm.

--------------------

Scott,

I responded to many of your comments above.  Let's keep working on it.

Gary 

But..this method is very new to you, and you have held on to one method for 20 yrs with the LRC.  I will give it some time....


January 2, 2008 10:08 AM
 

weatherinkc1 said:

Happy New Year Gary and the rest of the team! Great information on the blog this morning and I am really looking forward to the 45 day forecast later on today, and an exciting begining to 2008. It will be very interesting to see what happens this spring in regards to the severe weather potential.

Bryan

----------------

Bryan,

We will look into the spring soon.

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:26 AM
 

kw_jw174 said:

Welcome back Gary.  Hope your vacation was a great one.

Keri
January 2, 2008 10:30 AM
 

VdoManZ said:

Gary,

Awesome post! very very informative. I've always been intrigued by weather every since I was a kid. This blog has sparked my interest even more. I look forward to reading this every day and following the winter and summer storms as they are predicted, followed and analyzed after the fact. Keep up the awesome work and I look forward to reading the 45 day forecast.

Jereme from Lee's Summit

-----------------

Jereme,

We are so glad that our blog is providing you and others a way of learning and, especially, enjoying the changing weather.

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:31 AM
 

pvt_murphy said:

welcome back gary.  good discussion as well, it will be a busy day on the blogs for sure!

i just wanted to throw something out there to you and the rest of the weatherteam...

what amazes me most about kshb is the passion exuding from each of you.  maybe its because i lived in rather boring areas for weather before i came here(atlanta, orlando-see explanation below)...but i never met a single meterologist much less a whole team that really reaches out to people who want to learn more like you all have.  you have really set the bar high as far as weatherteams go.  


...sure, it rains more in atlanta than here...usually...aside from that drought they are having right now(they still have more rain than us, weird) but all in all, the weather is quite mundane there.  the thunderstorms are usually a joke.  there can be some good ones down near the fla border, but not up in the city.  it can snow up in the mountains of georgia, but not usually in the city...

...and sure, orlando gets hurricanes seemingly more frequently, but, when there arent any hurricanes around...its hot, humid, and mosquito-y from end of february/beginning of march all the way through november.  until the seabreeze kicks in, the air gets stagnant and polluted, not fun...its growing to fast for its own good(LA part II?)

anyway, off topic, but good job weatherteam! keep it up!

murph

-------------------

Murph,

Thanks!  I am from Los Angeles where the weather can be quite boring for very long stretches.  I just didn't know any better when I became interested in the weather at 5 years old.  I think it was when I was around 13 years old that I noticed Atlanta getting a few hundreths of an inch each afternoon during the summer, and I thought, wow, Atlanta would be an awesome weather place.  In Los Angeles we normally go from May through August without one drop of rain. So, that just fascinated me.

Our weather team is really fun to work with.  We are all on the same page and discuss each weather situation as it arrives to be consistent.

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:32 AM
 

kcroyals05 said:

Welcome back Gary and Happy New Year!!!  

Based on the "cycle" it would appear then that the last winter's last push or for that matter Spring's severe weather would be on tap starting around the 18th or so of March.  Just in time for Melissa and I trip to Southern California..

I have been watching the weather out in Southern California and it seems that they have had Santa Ana'a at the end of the month since October.  Wonder if they devil winds will be blowing during the time that we are out there???

Anyway, thanks for all the information that you and the weather team pass along.  Keep up the great work...  

Bill and Melissa Hale
Grandview

-------------------

Bill and Melissa,

Thanks!  And, yes that next cycle could be crazy at the end of March.  If there is still cold air around, oh my, the storms could be wild.

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:36 AM
 

siraluce said:

Earth's atmosphere is far to complex to cycle in a meaningful way, IMO.  Too many changing variables come into the mix.  There are too many interactions with cloud cover, ice pack cover, sea surface temperature, snow cover, small differences in radiation from the sun, etc.  Throw global warming, urbanization and global pollution into the mix and even more variables come into play.  A major volcanic eruption can wreak havoc on the weather and even climate for periods of years.

Those who study the atmosphere have been trying to come up with repeating cycles that can be tied to forecasts for years and years.  One of the early attempts I recall hearing about as a kid came from the leap in the understanding of the atmosphere that occurred during WW11, when a pattern of 6-day, various repeating 'weather types' was proposed. If was theorized that if one could identify the 6-day 'weather type,' you could provide effective long range forecasts.  This was eventually debunked and repeating patterns have that can be used to forecast weather events in the long term have yet to be proven.   And I don't think this is for lack of trying.  

There is a wealth of weather data and analogs (similar weather patterns that do repeat, at some time or other, but at arbitrary times) in the weather map archives now.  Surely, if a repeating weather pattern existed - especially one as simple as portrayed here, existed - it would be utilized by government and other meteorological organizations by now.   Computer models would be utilizing the repeating patters to formulate the forecasts, just as they use different methods of doing so today.  

There may be some semblance of a repeating pattern.. seasons repeat, after all, but one that can forecast events with any objectivly measureable degree of precision have not been proven.  

One thing interesting in this regard, is simpler atmospheric systems, like that of Mars.  It has been noted since close continuous monitoring of the planet, that the famous dust storms that enshroud parts of the planets in different seasons often start in the same area and on virtually the same Martian day as previous observed storms.  That is a simple global weather regime!  But it is also a far simpler one than the one we have here on Earth.

Just my 2 bits on the matter..

All that said, I will be watching the long range forecasts offered here with interest!

January 2, 2008 10:38 AM
 

Scott said:

Gary, I will give back precious real estate after this response.  I will not go further in this blog, but I will address two of your points.

"Just like our skeptics, I will try to prove this idea of yours to be not true."

While I understand it is the scientific process to try to disclaim assertions, I also believe it is the process to try to see how they work.  Too many critics of the LRC and other ideas quickly look to debunk rather than explore the idea and make improvements.  

I don't find value in just trying to blow up an idea.  It seems counterintuitive.  If it is invalid, then in exploration, it will be evident.  

To date you have not really explored this surface idea, so to dismiss it would seem..um..premature.  Much like those that dispell the LRC too early without full exploration.


"Scott, proven by whom?  You?  I haven't proven the LRC, and I don't believe you have proven anything either."  Great point, let me restate.

Assuming the LRC to be valid, then what I have proven is that the cycle within the LRC can be discovered earlier.  That is what was proven.  As you know, I have documented proof of when this cycle was discovered in early September.

Because I can match cold, warm, and precip trends to that of your maps, and because I came to the same cycle duration you did, and because the concept of a cycle is shared between the two methods, it seems valid to state that there is a direct relationship between the two methods.

Seems odd that you would be fighting to disclaim an assertion that would only strengthen your theory.  To each their own.

"The surface observations are very tied to the jet stream locations and to what is going on with the upper level flow."

Yes, I get this.  Got it.  My point is two fold.  I can likely pull up any map in early October and struggle to see any mate in August.  This validates your claim the cycle starts in Octoberish.  That said, I find it very difficult to get past two ideas related to this.

1.  I find it difficult to accept that the atmospheric dynamics each year on a certain time frame all the sudden snap together and cycle.  I believe it is a gradual flow that strengthens with the jetstream.  Just because you don't see it in the middle atmosphere does not mean its not happening.

2.  I get the thermal dynamics.  I understand your point.  Because of how you are reiterating this and trying to explain it, it tells me I haven't communicated well enough.  I will work on it, but won't beat a dead horse today in this blog.

All good stuff...what we both certainly can agree on is that their is a cycle and that there are longwaves that are evident this year.  Seems odd that agreeing on this would seem to be a consolation, since there are many that can't even get to this point with this theory.

LOL...more research in 2008.





January 2, 2008 10:53 AM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

yay! Winter is going to be the best in years!... The NWS has already put out the schedule for SkyWarn Spotter Training. I don't think, I'm going to love this spring..... :(
January 2, 2008 11:09 AM
 

ShawnP said:

We need lots of snow around the 13th of this month.
January 2, 2008 11:16 AM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

When does the NEW Midday News start? January 15th? 18th? 20th? 24th?
January 2, 2008 11:22 AM
 

Alden said:

Andrew,
I'm with you. When DOES the new newscast start? They did say mid January.

Personally, since they have to canclle KC Live for the Today Show is a bad thing. I think that they should get rid of fourth hour. The fourth hour is boring and hard to watch.   3 hours is enough.
January 2, 2008 11:28 AM
 

Jhwk33 said:

Andrew,

Where is the info on the NWS Sky Warn Spotter training?  I would be interested but don't know where to look.

Thanks!

Brent
January 2, 2008 11:46 AM
 

Scott said:

Seems so quiet on LRC day without Spooky and Notes.

Patience...
January 2, 2008 11:58 AM
 

Scott said:

For those of you so inclined...

I am going.

http://www.norman.noaa.gov/NSWW2008/index.html
January 2, 2008 11:59 AM
 

sertorius said:

Good late morning!!!

Just a quirky surface observation: wow-that high drifted all the way to around Oklahoma City and is currently at 1049 MB according to the 17Z surface data-pretty cool stuff-well, cool to me LOL

Looks like that High should drift to the East of us in about 6-7 hours-let the warm up commence!! Also, combined with the high to our east and what looks to be a developing surface low over Utah, we should have some pretty decent winds in here for tomorrow-already the Texas Pan Handle has some 20-30 mph sustained winds and they are warming up as well. They are in the lower 30's and we are in the teens.

Just some random observations for no real particular reason accept that it does not really take much to amuse me LOL

Bill in Lawrence
January 2, 2008 12:04 PM
 

weathermom said:

Do you expect us to get more then 30 inches of snow this winter?
January 2, 2008 12:04 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

NWS Spotter Training info:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/eax/?n=outreach-schedule

Alden,

I agree, keep KC Live and throw away the 4th Hour of Today!!
January 2, 2008 12:24 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

just read your blog.  WOW, now it's official, I'm at Category 5 excited, what great news on a frigid day, although others in my family are probably not going to be as happy;)  I have a shiny new metal ruler now and I'm anxious to really break it in;)  Thanks for the detailed info GREAT BLOG, and glad you are back, and cool pix of the dogs, I choose "evil eye's" pic. as the number one!!!!!!!!!!  Looks like I might get out of work early a few more times this year if it all pans out;)
January 2, 2008 12:24 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Scott,

I think that where you see StormLab at.
January 2, 2008 12:25 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Any chance of a Blizzard this year? :)
January 2, 2008 12:26 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Gary
     
     Great blog...this season is very interesting...with the cold air coming down here between Jan 24-Feb 25, Do you have any idea how long the storm systems will last that come in behind it...Im kinda hoping for long lasting big sno producers...Thanks for that blog entry...Keep up the good work!

------------------

First of all, the cold air could get here a lot sooner than January 24th.  January 24th is just the time the flow becomes cross Polar.  A long cold spell could arrive a week or so earlier.  Just look at that second map I posted.

Gary

 

January 2, 2008 12:28 PM
 

Scott said:

"And, the coldest weather of this winter is likely between January 15th and February 15th."

Isn't that a seasonal norm?

I know where you are coming with this, but wouldn't it make more sense to give trend data in previous cycles that would substantiate this claim?  Also, wouldn't we naturally have some warmups in this timeframe even if just the warm air return prior to a strong surface front?

Seems like a broad and easy part of your synopsis to pick apart.

Just food for thought.

--------------------

Scott,

The seasonal norm for the coldest part of the pattern would be right now!  And, you of all people should know that it could turn cold during that stretch no matter what pattern we are in.  The point is that we will see the "same pattern" return at that time.  It isn't just an arbritrary cold wave that happens every year.  It will be directly related to what just happened.

Gary

January 2, 2008 12:34 PM
 

Scott said:

Andrew, yes...I saw it there last year.  Probably will again this year.  And, probably will pass again this year...just me.

----------------------

Scott,

Answering an earlier comment...........The LRC has evolved greatly over the past 20 years, and especially during the past 5.  I am not holding onto any original idea or belief.  It is still evolving!

Gary

January 2, 2008 12:36 PM
 

barb15718 said:

Gary,
Welcome back from your time off - hope it was enjoyable. We reset our home weather station yesterday and the precipitation total at 158th and Lamar was 40.51 inches for 2007. I don't blog much, but do read daily. It's a great place to learn. The pictures of Stormy and Breezy are great. I almost thought I saw one of them early Sunday morning in the fog when I was coming home from church at 143rd and Nall, but it was a coyote coming out of the fog from the golf course - quite spectacular! Have a Happy New Year and I appreciate all of your good work.
Barb

-----------------

Barb,

When Breezy and Stormy see those coyote's they go nuts.  Anyway, thank you for blogging today.  I think this year's precipitation patterns will provide us with as much rain as you had last year, hopefully with no long dry spells.

Gary

January 2, 2008 12:53 PM
 

MikeL said:

Gary, this does sound very exciting for us snow lovers if everything falls into place!  Here in southwest Topeka I am keeping my sled dogs well fed so we'll be ready to go!  The down side is my son has several H.S. basketball games scheduled around Kansas City in late January and early February that we have to travel to and back from on I-70. We already had some travel and schedule problems for the December games. I'll probably just not tell him the "good" news about the upcoming weather potential for now (hehe!).

Mike

----------------

Mike,

Yes, it sounds good.  Now let's see it produce.  It will be amazing to watch.

Gary

January 2, 2008 12:58 PM
 

Emmysmom said:

I think I'm going to have to stop reading the blog except for when we are actually in bad weather. Hearing all these predictions for bad weather and lots of snow in January, February and March just depresses me too much.  I'm better off not knowing.

-----------------

Well, I will try to take a different spin on it for you!  Spring is just a little more than two months away.  And, it could hit 65 degrees this weekend.

Gary

January 2, 2008 1:07 PM
 

Brent said:

"a few snowstorms that will be bigger, more widespread, and possibly record breaking.  The most likely spot for the record breaking snow will be across the same areas that have been getting hit thus far, from Topeka to St. Joseph to the Iowa border. "


I love the first part....but when is it Harrisonville's turn?...we are still waiting for  out first snowstorm over 3.5 inches.... st joseph has had  4 times as much snow as we have had ...and when they get 5 inch snows...we get a half inch..or nothing...lol I completely undestand that you guys can not control the weather...I would just like to know if the pattern could be changing anytime soon....to make the southern half of the metro even get a decent snow sometime soon?

thank you and welcome back!

I like the second picture above....the scenery is great...


Brent

------------------

Brent,

This next time through the cycle could still be scary for you, however, I expect the cold air masses to be even colder this time.  Hopefully that will get some of the storm systems to track just a little farther south.

Gary

January 2, 2008 1:12 PM
 

nastyweather said:

What is the best place to check for historical weather patterns in the same year, so you can graphically see QPF, vort max, 540mb line, etc.  I have to travel via the interstate to Dallas on January 24th and back on the 26th and if I remember correctly the 1st-3rd of December (i.e. 54 days back) we had a minor ice/snow storm one of those days.

Thanks in advance.
January 2, 2008 1:25 PM
 

BBTye said:

Sorry Brent...I lived in Harrisonville for the first 18 years of my life, and I watched as storm after storm went north, or south, or developed just east of that town.  For years, I thought I must have been a storm anti-magnet!

Hang in there, it will snow eventually.  (You can always do what I did, and move within 30 miles of the Iowa border :)  ...seems to be snowier up here (sometimes)
January 2, 2008 1:28 PM
 

Brent said:

dang it...I'm moving to st joseph......

any chance of Ice storms south of Kansas city?....one channel has freezing rain on tuesday I think....
January 2, 2008 1:28 PM
 

Scott said:

nastyweather - here is where you can see the maps...at the bottom, type in your dates...this will have your troughs/ridges - but you will need some observational data to get to your thicknesses and moisture parameters.  You can see moisture at 700mb in these maps.

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/obswx/maps/

As far as events that actually happened on a certain date, the NWS climate information is very useful.

http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=eax

I recommend CF6

Gary, I agree with your point above...just pointing out how it could be misinterpreted.  When I can get to another computer, I will add in where I believe the specific cold or warm days will be..

If you are interested.

January 2, 2008 1:36 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

What a great blog entry Gary!! It was a very exciting December for most people. I am excited to think about what the rest of winter will bring. Maybe this time the wealth can be shared some down here. LOL!!! Not the ice storm though...I hate the thought of that. We have had a few inches of snow down here...I will wait my turn though. Welcome back...the team did great while you were away.
Monica
Pleasanton
January 2, 2008 1:36 PM
 

mommytutu said:

Welcome back, Gary!  
Great job team on forecasting during the month of December.  I have to admit our family wasn't followers of the LRC and blog until my sister kept preaching about your accuracy!  We've seen the light!!!  Hopefully, S. JoCo will be in the bullseye soon b/c it just isn't fair that St. Joe gets all the snow this year!  

Thanks for explaining everything in understandable lingo...as a former teacher, who tried to explain weather to 10 yr. olds, you have a gift!  I don't know if you remember the visit, but I was teaching at the school where you first brought Stormy & Windy (?) together.  I'll never forget after the assembly when the kids "rushed" towards you and the dogs.  I was sure either you and the dogs were going to be trampled or that the dogs were going to bolt for the doors.  Now, it is funny, but from the looks on all the adults' faces, including yours, it wasn't funny then!  :)

My husband & I are anxiously awaiting the next snow!  Keep up the good forecasting!

January 2, 2008 1:37 PM
 

Scott said:

Brent, you are better off just sticking to this station.  Everytime you look elsewhere, you get your hopes up..and have them crushed by ongoing inaccuracies.

;-)
January 2, 2008 1:38 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Ok...I see...When u make your next blog with the 45 day forcast, are you going to talk about our possible snowfall potential, and how much we get...Cant wait to read more on the LRC!! :)
January 2, 2008 1:43 PM
 

WinterTracker said:

I hope the new round of storms in late January is preceded by a cold snap, or else the ground might be to warm after these upper 50's. I was just in Minnesota and they have had highs in the single digits and lows in the subzero range. My house faces north/south so my front yard is green and my back yard is white.
January 2, 2008 1:51 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Thanks Scott, IF this LRC holds true I could be in for some travel problems.  Can't believe I'm going to say it, but I'm actually hoping Gary's wrong on the LRC this time or he's a few days off on the cycle.  I'll now in 3 weeks!
January 2, 2008 1:58 PM
 

bellgolf08 said:

Very excited to see what happens. We need some serious snow down to the SE of the metro. also am looking forward to an active spring.
January 2, 2008 2:05 PM
 

jbtornado said:

Here's a very interesting link to look at on January 2!!!

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/exper/day4-8/

Probably just a rain event for us but its interesting seeing areas of SE KS and Southern Missouri to the south highlighted in a severe weather risk this time of year...Obviously this will not last and winter will come back, but I'll always take a good thunderstorm so this has me hopeful, but not too excited......



January 2, 2008 2:14 PM
 

TAinOP said:

Well, I think I now have the answer to the somewhat rhetorical question, "If you knew the exact date and time of your death, would you want to know?" I now know I would not and so I will have to depart from the blog and go about my merry, if uninformed, way. If the LRC is proven, then some more fun is taken away from life. I am not necessarily better off since even if it is viable it will not be 100% accurate, yet so many will base so much on it. I'm not a flat-earther or Luddite, but as I get older, the need to know everything about everything diminishes.

Good luck and be safe.
January 2, 2008 2:17 PM
 

siraluce said:

When is the last time we had a 30.88 barometer, as was registered today?

Anyone have any idea?
January 2, 2008 2:19 PM
 

doombob said:

The LRC reminds me of electrical engineering classes.  I've often thought that weather patterns exhibit the same "steady state" behaviors as an electric circuit or compnent.  Pretty heavy on the calculus though.  Seemingly unpredictable and extreme swings are then followed by simple sinusoidal waves.  The problem is figuring out what those waves are in equilibrium as well as when the transients will end.
January 2, 2008 2:23 PM
 

Zazel said:

Gary, I hope your 45 day prediction plays out and we get widespread heavy snow.  Unfortunately after the last month of inclement weather that produced very little at my house in far northeast KCMO, I'm left feeling like these storms are nothing but a series of first dates.

I'm told good things about them, and how fun and exciting they will be.  They sure do look pretty when I see them and even show potential.  Sadly, the end result is they choose the other guy on either side of me, their potential isn't materialized, or they simply don't show up!  Fortunately, despite having come to fully expect more storm misses or storms failing to produce for my specific area, I found my "perfect storm" and will be getting married in May.  Now I have just the weather to disappointment me.     ~  Dave
January 2, 2008 2:38 PM
 

nastyweather said:

I did a quick Google search for additional archived weather data and found this site all of you might enjoy: http://www.everythingweather.com/links/archived-data.shtml

Like I said earlier I have to hit the road and head to Dallas on January 24th, so taking Gary's 54 day LRC I went back to look at October 8th and December 1st and what do you know there's a good deal of rain over the top of us.  This is going to suck.

October 8th 12z
http://weather.unisys.com/archive/sfc_map/0710/07100812.gif
December 1st 12z
http://weather.unisys.com/archive/sfc_map/0712/07120112.gif
January 2, 2008 2:47 PM
 

RDub said:

Nobody in KC has freezing rain in the forecast at all. Not any TV station and not the NWS. Unless it's something someone said on the air but didn't put on their website.
January 2, 2008 3:05 PM
 

Larry D said:

I'm intrigued by the LRC theory. Out of curiosity I counted back 54 days from todays single digit low and hit November 7th which was our first hard freeze at 28F. Nailed that. I also did some research on the winter of 1959-1960 parallel mentioned earlier. Listed below are days in 1960 that hit either record highs or lows for that date:

Jan 11   65F (high)
Jan 12   69F (high)
Feb 22    8F (low)
Mar 4     1F (low)
Mar 5     0F (low)
Mar 6     9F (low)
Apr 24  87F (high)
Apr 30  30F (low)

The January highs above compare favorably with this weeks warmup. It will be interesting to see if the similarities continue. I certainly hope they do not.
January 2, 2008 3:06 PM
 

PK in LS said:

Welcome back, Gary.  Jeremy and team did a great job while you were gone.

Thanks for the LRC explanation.  You should have been a teacher.  Oh, wait a minute.  You are!

I have to drive to Tan-Tar-A on January 23 and come back on January 26.  Could you please make certain there is no bad weather between Lee's Summit and Osage Beach during those days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------

We will put in the order for you!

Gary

January 2, 2008 3:22 PM
 

f00dl3 said:

Lol Gary, the expression on the dog's face combined with red-eye is priceless!

----------------

Breezy is doing so much better, but she does look evil in that picture!

Gary

January 2, 2008 3:39 PM
 

Trentonite said:

Any word on when we'll see the 45 day forecast?
January 2, 2008 3:39 PM
 

briantchr said:

Gary,

What a great blog! Easy to understand and full of thought provoking information.  Enjoyed reading every word of it.

The "other station" has mentioned possibly (use that word loosely) that they would not be surprised to see tornado watches posted nearby on Monday evening.  Do you see what they are seeing?! I know the temps are going to warm up, but is there going to be that much instablility in the atmosphere to spawn a Severe Weather Event?  Sounds odd to me.  

Keep up your excellent work everyone!!!! Have a great 2008!!!!!

Brian in CHILLY St. Joseph

-----------------

Brian,

Well, there is a chance, but I doubt it right now. Let's see how it sets up early in the week.  I would say it is highly unlikely at this moment for our local area.

Gary

January 2, 2008 3:43 PM
 

nastyweather said:

One of us misread something because I'm reading a 54 day cycle this year and it was a 45 day cycle last year.
January 2, 2008 3:51 PM
 

Scott said:

Larry D,

Isn't it funny how the LRC that is strictly defined in the upper levels can also have the same possible cycle at the surface?
January 2, 2008 4:05 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Gary,
First of all, welcome back!  I hope that you had a wonderful vacation! :)  I love the pictures of Stormy and Breezy. :)  It sounds like they enjoyed their time off with their human. :)

I really appreciate your first blog entry of the year.  Thank you! :)    

Kristi

---------------

Happy New Year Kristi!

Gary

January 2, 2008 4:42 PM
 

Brent said:

"  Scott said:
Brent, you are better off just sticking to this station.  Everytime you look elsewhere, you get your hopes up..and have them crushed by ongoing inaccuracies. "


actually thats not true...this station gets me all excited...and then Harrisonville gets nothing while KC north is getting pounded...

"RDub said:
Nobody in KC has freezing rain in the forecast at all. Not any TV station and not the NWS. Unless it's something someone said on the air but didn't put on their website."

yes they do...channel 5 at noon....
sorry I had to mention it to you...but it is there...


Brent
January 2, 2008 4:46 PM
 

Brent said:

did I miss the 45 day outlook?
January 2, 2008 4:46 PM
 

LRCfan said:

we need a decent rain to wash off the yuck off the streets before it starts again.
January 2, 2008 4:51 PM
 

Scott said:

Part of this longwave shift this year, Brent, was the shield over Storm Dog's house has shifted over Harrisonville and parts of JOCO.

Maybe next year.

--------------------

Brent,

If you are reading this, I will talk about Harrisonville at 5 PM, in just a few minutes on the air.

Gary

January 2, 2008 4:54 PM
 

stepheninskc said:

Hey How is everyone today & welcome back Gary....I was playing on the internet the other day and wound up at youtube, they had a video of radar and sats from like 2004 to early 2006 and a few other dates...anyway you can really see the pattern as you watch the 4 minute loop...you can actually see when it gets to winter it looks like its looping on its own but really its the sats...I forgot the link but if you do a search  for radar loop or sat loop i think it comes up.......given the pattern and anyone can answer this where are we compared to the last "cycle"...I am just reminded that when I look at the GFS it look like it did right before thanksgiving...heavy rain then wait some snow then less then less and finally none just like it did on the day b-4 thanksgiving does anyone else remember that?

-------------

It's all cycling!  I will have to look for those satelite movies.

 

Gary

January 2, 2008 5:35 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

gary,

is it just me or was it considerably colder today than yesterday? its already down into single digits here.

murph

----------------

Murph,

We are right under the cold high pressure area, and it is strong.  It will move off to the east soon and temperatures may bottom out in the next 5 hours.  And, yes, it was colder today!

Gary

January 2, 2008 5:47 PM
 

weatherjoy said:

Great blog Gary- and also Scott-- your posts are also interesting!
January 2, 2008 6:02 PM
 

Brent said:

awwww sadly I missed you talking about Harrisonville....can you please give me a link to it...or maybe you can tell me what you said?

--------------

Brent,

I showed the sat picture of the snow cover.  And then talked about how Harrisonville southward has had a lot less snow.  I will try to do it again at 6.

Gary

January 2, 2008 6:03 PM
 

Brent said:

thanks I will be watching!
January 2, 2008 6:14 PM
 

beckysma said:

Great job on the news Gary, you really put yourself out there!

Harsh winter ahead, yikes!
January 2, 2008 6:21 PM
 

stepheninskc said:

if anyone wants to see the high speed radar and sats on you tube you search under weather radar loops, it brings up 3 choices pick the middle one that one is roughly 2 years of a rainsnow radar from intellicast, then off to the right there is more like it...once you see this you wont need anymore convincing of a cycle...when it gets to the fall it looks like a broken record you would swear that it was the same thing skipping but it isn't its a cycle check it out its neat.
January 2, 2008 6:25 PM
 

jbtornado said:

Gary,

If your going to be wrong about a winter prediction? Aren't you glad you'll be wrong on the low end for a change? I know how you enjoy snowfall... Wouldn't shock me if we have many areas esp in NW MO that finish the winter with 35"+ Snow amounts.... Its rather incredible to see...

Gary we also must keep in mind according to your theory, there can be cycles that are similar but they can do it differently too...For example this last spell we had the bulk of the wintry precipitation just north of KC... This doesn't necessarily mean the next set up will be north... It could easily shift a bit south or west or east.....

This has to be true because you said when the pattern was forming, it was up in Southern Canada not interacting with us at all, then later it cycled on top of us and did that... So can't it easily cycle but not exactly hit another area? For example maybe the next phase around Jan 23rd would bring more heavy snows to Southern Missouri.... I hope I'm wording this okay... Scott feel free to give me insight as well...

I think Gary's on to something with this LRC, But I dont think its near as simple as he wants us to believe and I think the more he looks into it, the more he'll realize mother nature is still so complicated and finicky... But that's just my take

Jon

January 2, 2008 6:34 PM
 

MikeTrainor1 said:

gary, team... good job on the forecast and presenting the LRC in summary for the next month out! also, loved the "magician" promo! put it right out there you did! just like the forecast! loved the pics too, red eyes and all!

btw... to all the bloggers and the team alike, i say let's give jeff penner a big "huzzah" for all the work he puts in. he's always there in the background doing the work, little on-air time compared to gary, jeremy and brett, but always seems to be there too! thanks jeff! - mike t.

----------------

Mike,

Thanks, and Jeff really appreciates it!

Gary

January 2, 2008 6:37 PM
 

stepheninskc said:

Its funny how we think the LRC is just confined to our MO\KS area but its probably more global then we think, and I think Gary has mentioned many times before that it was very complicated and difficult but not every body would prefer to be boondoggled with all the info that really belong to the LRC....I mean some of us would, I would love to sit here and read all the studies and info but for some viewers (absolutely no offense) they just want it simple..so maybe Gary can give us weather freaks  ..lol .. yes i called my self a weather freak...maybe he can give us some type of info in some web page or something that goes into the detail some of us would prefer but for the KSHB blog the info he says is probably good enough lots of people wouldn't understand some of it I am sure. and get turned off by the science behind it since meteorology is rather difficult..so something to think about huh..
January 2, 2008 6:44 PM
 

Alden said:

MikeTrainor1, I agree, Jeff is always back there doing hard work, and I almost think of that almost every time i see him back there.
January 2, 2008 7:13 PM
 

Alden said:

If you noticed on that Sat. image Gary showed us, you can see a circle over the metro area.
January 2, 2008 7:15 PM
 

Braysmama said:

50" inches of snow? I think I'd be happy if we down on the southeast side of town would end up with at least 5" the way things are going. It's a total flip from last year and it's getting depressing looking at all the brown. Hopefully spring will be a little more exciting.
January 2, 2008 7:41 PM
 

stepheninskc said:

the circle around kc is a result of plowed streets....
January 2, 2008 7:42 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Jeff does a wonderful job! :)  Gary, Jeremy, Brett, and Jeff make a great team! :)

Did anyone see when Jeff did the weather during one of the Saturday newscasts in December?  I did!

Kristi
January 2, 2008 7:45 PM
 

stjoelawyer said:

Yes Jeff did saturdays forcasts.

Gary I always knew weather cycled but did not have a theory. . . just my head telling me this.  I told people were were going to have an April cold snap but they laughed.

OK  officially 15 inches  unofficial  18 in
It will not take many events in that mid jan-feb window to add that much more if this tract is true.  I could see several more 10 inch events up here throw in a clipper or two and that is 30 inches easy.  Not counting winter cycle three!!

The next cold active cycle would be on going 17-23 March St Pats day and Easter.  all in their bonnets and winter coats. .  then severe.  OUCH
January 2, 2008 8:00 PM
 

Greg said:

This weekend looks awesome, get outside and enjoy!!!!
January 2, 2008 8:11 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

gary,

are you considering the OCT 2nd event part of the cycle? if so, then 104(54*2) days from that is JAN 18th.  wouldnt this signify the start of the active period?

---------------------

Murph,

We really believe that this pattern was born after that October 2nd storm.  It is always up for debate, but we have gone extensively over it and we believe it was more related to last year's pattern.

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:27 PM
 

Scott said:

Great job forecasting Gary...nice to see.  It is amazing still with two different methods we came up with similar events and dates.  Mine was posted yesterday.

This is truely amazing...two methods to one general concept.

---------------

Scott,

It is really one method, but with the Scott twist!  I will look at your forecast later.  I am showing it on the air tonight.

Gary

January 2, 2008 8:42 PM
 

bellgolf08 said:

Gary is too early for some thoughts on about how active the spring might be?
January 2, 2008 8:55 PM
 

sertorius said:

Gary:

Good Evening to you sir!!

Just a random observation: Looking at the 2Z surface observations-wow what an impressive high pressure system this is-1045 MB sitting on the Oklahoma/Arkansas border and then stretching into Central Missouri-there are some 14 degree readings down in Western Arkansas tonight-very impressive shot of cold air indeed!! I just find it fascinating looking at the current surface data this time of year!!

Currently we are at 13 here in SW Lawrence but noticed that our flow has now shifted to the South South West-we may go another degree or two colder but my guess is that we stay steady between 13-14 degrees and maybe even climb a degree or two by morning. Noticed also the winds picking up in SW Kansas-with the high to our east and that developing low to our west, we should be pretty breezy tommorrow-it will be much warmer for sure but tomorrow morning will prob. feel down right chilly!!!

Have a great night and great addition to this morning's  blog!!!!! Awesome stuff!!!

Bill looking at the snow one last time before it goes bye bye in Lawrence.

---------------

Bill,

It will be fascinating to see how the pattern repeats.  The strong features are so dominant that our confidence level is high. 

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:01 PM
 

Brent said:

I loved the 45 day forecast at 6 Gary...it was awesome...is there any chance of you posting it on the blog?...I just got a quick glimpse of it on the air...and I was on my  way out the door.

------------------

It's on the blog now!

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:03 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

YIKES Gary....LOL, you are really putting yourself out their....good for you!! I will be rooting for your long term forcast and for some good snow my way. Happy New Year to you and the team.
Monica
Pleasanton

----------------

Monica,

How much snow have you had this season?  It seems like you have only had a few inches of snow.

Happy New Year!

Gary

January 2, 2008 9:24 PM
 

TeacherInStJoe said:

For those that want to pack up and move to St. Joseph, I wouldn't move just yet. This is the first year any many that we've actually had a winter to speak of. When it comes to bad weather, St. Joe is known to be the splitting point. A storm reaches here and splits into two and go north and south of us, but never through town. I am happy to see winter for once. I know my students are. I will say however, I wouldn't mind a little warmer temperatures then the 2 degrees it is now. Will we honestly warm up this weekend? I have concerns about that with the snowpack on the ground. I think it only reached 15 today for the high.  Brrrrrrrrrrrrr!
January 2, 2008 9:35 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

Yes Gary...maybe 2 inches with a few dustings. I certainly do not want the ice but would like some good snow. I keep reminding myself I was on the receiving end last year....:o), so I am trying not to complain and just patiently wait. LOLOL!! I am looking forward to the next system though, Good luck.
Monica
Pleasanton
January 2, 2008 9:47 PM
 

Scott said:

A Scott twist.  Ha.  Not sure it is the same method..same concept, different method.

Just wait for the half gainer I have saved up.  

LOL
January 2, 2008 9:53 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

First and foremost:  A cornerstone of science is corrupted when statements such as this are made by any student of science:  "This is all I ask of the other skeptics.  Prove the LRC to be untrue."  The idea is not to prove a negative - the burden of proof lies on you - the purporter of the theory.  And I still have yet to hear from any other meteorologists, climatologists, or other atmospheric scientists (outside of your studio) that buy into this idea.  If you can point me in the direction of them, I'll gladly stand corrected on that claim.  Asking someone to prove a negative - to prove your theory is wrong - is disingenuous at best, a corruption of science at worst.  

What if I told you I had a friend that claimed that there was a little purple 5-legged monster that existed in Shawnee Mission Park.  He has been there for years and eats scraps left by picnicers.  He speaks in English and only talks to my friend.  I say this is proposterous.  He says "prove that the purple monster DOES NOT exist!".  Um...yeah... science just doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof lies on him, not me.  

I (and many other meteorologists who have read about and researched these ideas) have yet to see convincing evidence that some sort of weather cycle exists.  Are there some interesting and entertaining coincidences from time to time?  There sure are.  But to cite those as evidence of a cycling theory is tenuous, at best, in my view.  The reason why I see these as more coincidence than rational theory is because the theory doesn't always hold water.  Last fall, I cited several random dates throughout the spring and summer and asked for how the patterns apparent on those dates appeared during other "cycles" that season...and the response was weak or, more often when I asked, non-existent.  As a student of science, I DO have an open mind and will entertain any and all who claim supporting evidence, but I'd like to see something objective and conclusive in order to jump aboard this concept.

If this has been well-researched for 15 years as mentioned, why are there not more on board?

I think Siraluce had a number of very pertinent points above which went unnoticed by just about everyone here.

It is human nature to seek patterns and repetition in everything so I don't fault anyone for seeking to do the same with such a fascinating phenomena as the weather.  

But what goes unmentioned in much of the dialogue here is the vast complexity of the Earth's atmosphere.  We are far from sampling a fraction of one percent when we summarize the state of the atmosphere - be it with pressure surfaces (the 500mb maps - only a few DOZEN data points over the entire continental US!) or the surface (hundreds of stations).  

I second the notion that if the atmosphere were simply on a repeating cycle of XX days every year, it would have been discovered long ago, narrowed down, and quantified by research scientists with some of our most powerful computers at their disposal.  Computer models have capabilities of picking up on even the most subtle changes and/or patterns...yet it seems this hasn't happened.  Why not?

This is probably a bad time to post my thoughts for discussion as a new entry will probably soon be posted before others respond here...

PS:  I see a lot of "we" in the opinions stated in the original post about the cycle theory...did Jeremy chime in over the last week or so with his feelings on the theory?

----------------------

Notes,

Wow!  We are just baffled on how you can't see this.  I can see where there are times through the cycle that are difficult for you to see the comparison.  But, man, look at how I am laying this out.  I am showing you the maps from November. And, weeks from now when that part of the pattern returns is it just going to be coincidence?  No way!  I am laying it out for you weeks ahead of time without any support of the computer models.

There are other meteorologists on board!  Doug Heady has been using the theory the past two years to make accurate forecasts down in the Pittsburg/Joplin market.  And, there will be many more in the years to come.  Let's see what happens with this season.  Remember, it isn't just the cycling part of the pattern. It is also the "long term" longwaves!  They are firm, strong, and easy to see this season.  This is why we will continue to get pounded.  But, to you if we continue to get blasted by winter storms and wet systems it will all just be coincidence.  I say no way!

Gary

January 2, 2008 10:22 PM
 

tirzah2 said:

Hi Gary,  Happy New Year & loved your LCR theory for the next 45 days.  It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds and the best part of your forecast is, you didn't mention 'ice'!  

Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Stormy and Breezy were all ears in the ice fog.  Good pic of them Gary.

Laura in Raytown

PS  I knew we were in for a bad winter when last fall I found a solid black wolley worm on the door stoop.  Now that's a up front and as close of a forecast as our grandmothers could get. :o)

PSS  Any chance of getting your all local weather channel on Direct TV?
January 2, 2008 10:25 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

well, its down to 2 degrees at the fort, gary.  do you forsee negative numbers tonight? i dont know what the low temp was at the fort this morning(i slept in for once!!!), however i expect it was around 2 or so.  i thought the colder day was supposed to be tuesday with wed morning having the coldest temps, not one day later...you think we will break freezing tomorrow? i know you have 36, but a 34 degree diurnal...assuming it doesnt get any colder???thats an enormous change.
January 2, 2008 10:29 PM
 

CentralOP said:

The pattern cycles back toward arctic air in late January the low temperatures should be below zero. Outyling northern areas of the metro and northern Missouri have seen sub-zero low temperatures so far this season. Southern areas and urban areas closer to the city have not had lows below zero at all. Also, it would appear that the warmer air will last about a week before the pattern shifts yet again in the Pacific allowing for some slightly colder air to build back along with storminess.
January 2, 2008 10:31 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

notes,

now that gary stuck out his neck...i would reserve judgement until the dates of his predictions pass, they are rather specific dates.  i understand the direction you are coming from.  however, as a scientifically oriented person myself, i believe that every true scientist needs to be an optimist.  glass half full until proven otherwise.  nothing would get done if we were all pessimistic, like yourself.  i like your picknicker-eating monster though...sounds like the next stephen king novel...

seriously though, i already have 20" for the season, so 40" seem doable, assuming that it will get equally active again.  

is there a specific reason why you think that the OCT 2nd storm doesnt fall into the current LRC, gary? is it an outlier to your theory ;)~ just kidding, sort of...

murph

ps i second laura in raytown...get yourselves on Direct TV!
January 2, 2008 10:40 PM
 

CentralOP said:

It would be great if the second half of winter is as active as the first half along with sub-zero temperatures!
January 2, 2008 10:44 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Can't wait for the harsh part of winter!!
January 2, 2008 10:46 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

well, if we are going to break any record lows this season, it will have to be the 2nd half of march.  the record lows range from the upper single digits to upper teens.  that seems doable given the right scenario.

late jan/early feb seem nearly impossible to achieve.  nearly ALL the record lows are in the double digits below zero, easy.  we could hit -10 on most nights during that stretch and still not get close.  the coldest temp i have experienced here was -9 after the DEC 05 snow here.  and it was not pleasant shoveling 10 inches of snow in that kind of temp.  i experienced -10 in chicago last winter during the superbowl.  it was so cold that even chicagoans were complaing about the cold!

what about you?
January 2, 2008 10:50 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

pvt:  I'll watch what happens over the next 45 days with interest, but my views on the theory are based not on the coming 45 days, but on the last couple of years of observing the weather with this theory in mind.  But yes, I will look at the next 6 weeks objectively, although I have a feeling that the verification will be woefully SUBjective.  That is all in the eye of the beholder.  And as I stated earlier:  "As a student of science, I DO have an open mind and will entertain any and all who claim supporting evidence, but I'd like to see something objective and conclusive in order to jump aboard this concept."  

As a scientist, my role doesn't involve "optimism" or other subjective views... it is objetivity that rules the day - including keeping my eyes open and interpreting evidence even when I lean one way or another.  And I'll continue to examine all evidence that is discussed.  There are many patterns and long-term set-ups that occur in the weather and to that end, this cycling theory is not wholly unique.  But as it is outlined by Gary - I just haven't seen the objective evidence to support such a specific theory, that's all.  

When the big snowstorm was approaching before Christmas, I attempted to pin Gary down on how it fit into his theory and he stated that the "stronger northern solution" fit his theory well and that a stronger southern storm (which is what verified) would "not fit the theory".  Gary also stated he wouldn't "come up with an explanation just to make it fit the theory - the southern solution wouldn't fit."  So the theory just works some of the time?

One other thing PVT:  regarding the ~35 degree diurnal temp swing tomorrow:  looks very possible to me with fairly potent WAA in place.  It'll be inhibited somewhat in the northland by the snowpack, but I'd be surprised if KC doesn't make it above freezing.  
January 2, 2008 10:54 PM
 

CentralOP said:

The coldest air temp I have experienced was -30F in northern New England near the Canadian border. The coldest wind chill I have experienced would probably be about -55F in central Minnesota during January.
January 2, 2008 10:56 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary,

I have never disputed the "long term long waves" that set up over the course of seasons ... that is a basic tenet of meteorology that many meteorologists the world over have had a hand in - many before our time.  It is the cycling aspect - as pinned down to a certain length each year - that I have not seen conclusive evidence for.

When the first of many late December snowstorms was forming (and well-forecast by the models 5+ days out)...and you were still hesitant.  According to your 54-day cycle, the coming storm would have lined up with late October - a fairly static and dry period for this region.  You clearly stated that, based on your theory, you expected the northern portion of the storm to be stronger (in the upper midwest - north of our location) and that if the southern storm was stronger, it, in your words "wouldn't fit the theory" and that you "wouldn't come up with an explanation to just make it fit" arbitrarily.  Then you went on vacation... I never heard more after the southern storm intensified and verified in a huge way, shutting down interstates and basically crippling much of the region for a day (12/22).

What is the mechanism that drives this repeating cycle?

-------------------

Notes,

I have no idea what mechanism drives the repeating cycle.  It could be a combination of many different things, or it could be something completely new to meteorology that exists, somehow, in the air above us.  In the chaos?  And, it may have little to do with the Ocean temperature anamolies?  El Nino, La Nina, the NAO, MJO, etc, likely influence the position of the jet stream, but I just don't think they have anything to do with the cycle length.  But, Notes, it has happened again.  I know it is difficult for you to see in certain parts of the pattern.  We see it.  And, the big longwave features, when they repeat, it is so obvious.  And, these are now repeating this season on around a 54 day cycle.  Let's see what happens in this next cycle.  It isn't perfect.

Gary

January 2, 2008 11:01 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

KCL's Last day is January 11th. So the new midday news must start the 14th!! So sad to say goodbye to KCL.
January 2, 2008 11:02 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/08/06/glaciers-melting-from-global-warming/

Interesting;

"...Actually, as I said to some of our supporters, there has been global warming since the Ice Age that was generated by the Flood! As there will never be another global Flood, there will never be an ice age like the one the Flood generated. The Rangers said that man needed to try to stop the melting back, etc! Because they deny the Bible’s account of the Flood, they only think in terms of what is happening at the present, and therefore, they don’t understand the big picture at all..."
January 2, 2008 11:07 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

notes, you make valid points.  i, however, see correlations on the maps posted above.  he has been showing them all winter.  that combined with the possible accuracy of a 45 day forecast lends more credit than coincidence to me.  i see your concerns, notes.       however, if gary is nailing events 45 days out with accuracy, he should get a raise...and then wire it to me...(im sure you understand, gary)

centralop, was that wind chill on the old scale, or the new one? it is very difficult to achieve those wind chills on the new scale...

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/images/wind_chill_compare.pdf
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/images/windchill.gif

i would say that on the new scale, the coldest wind chills i have experienced were around 15-25 below zero.

-----------------

Do you like the new scale or the old one?  And, I of course hope our long range forecast comes through.  It may not be perfect but I will be very surprised if it isn't close.  I think we have a good handle on the pattern.  It is still a long range prediction, so we will see.

Gary

January 2, 2008 11:14 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

"...In fact, 20,000 scientists, of whom about 2,700 of them are physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers or environmental scientists, who are in a position to understand the global warming issues, have signed the following statement:

   There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth...4"

FROM: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n2/human-caused-global-warming
January 2, 2008 11:17 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth...4"

...just like it did to venus, andrew? those are skewed phrases.
January 2, 2008 11:23 PM
 

RickMckc said:

I'm confused Andrew ... how do your posts relate to the subject/content of this blog?

Concerning THAT subject ... Notes, you make great points, but sometimes I think the LRC shouldn't be thought of as a "scientific theory" so much as it is a set of loose indicators that point to a trend that points to a more likely set of occurences. Last year, I read that some met at AccuWx saw some correlation between 10mb temps in the Arctic Circle and cold outbreaks in the US, and they were using that "hunch"/"tool"/"whatever" in their forecasts. That doesn't seem much different than what Gary et al are doing with the LRC.

Whatever it is, it generates enough confidence for them to make a fairly specific 45 day forecast. I don't think I've ever seen anything that specific before - well, except on Scott's blog in the last week or so:) It will be interesting to see how that turns out.
January 2, 2008 11:28 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

I know it doesn't make sense, but I will fight to the very end about the Global Warming Subject!!!

-------------------

Andrew,

Just let the Global Warming debate go for now.  Have a great night.

Gary

January 2, 2008 11:32 PM
 

radman22 said:

Great job explaining the LRC in the blog today.   It is funny to see all the critics to your theory.    What they dont see is for the first time, at least I think, you have really stuck your neck out and based a radical 45 day forecast on this cycle.   It will either be right or wrong, no in between with this setup.    If its warm or dry during that period, you will have some explaining to do.   If it sets up like you say, I dont see how anybody could say you got lucky.     Either way I am excited because the truth will come out very soon.

Many thanks to Jeremy and Brett while you were on vacation, they did a great job.  Jeremy has been an great addition to your team,   I almost forgot about Jamie...Not!!   Hope she is doing well in Dayton.

Thanks again for keeping this blog such a great learning tool

Joe
January 2, 2008 11:51 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Okay, time for bed.
January 2, 2008 11:53 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

http://koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=7276516

Doug Heady's Month Long Weather Forecast

I have the pattern completely figured out now.  We are in a 55 day repetitive pattern.  This means for the next 10 months we will be in this pattern until the next one sets up next October.

That means I can tell you now for the next 10 months when we will have storm systems move through that could give rain or snow.  In the spring I should be able to nail down severe weather events.

I am very excited about this.

This pattern is how I predict the month long forecast which has had over 90% accuracy over the past 5 years that I have used it.  So this is what I am thinking over the next 3 or 4 weeks:
January 2, 2008 11:55 PM
 

RickMckc said:

Wow, nice catch, Andrew!
January 3, 2008 12:01 AM
 

Scott said:

Notes,

Just a thought.

If a precip event was recorded three seperate times 54 days apart, that could be chance.  If in the same cycle a cold spell occured for 5-7 days three times each 54 days apart, that is a bit more solid..but maybe still chance.

What if I could point out 3-5 events that recur about 54 days apart, and show it happening over a 6 month period.  Is that chance?

This is what I expect to show in the upcoming weeks.  Gary isn't onboard yet with my method, but I am very confident of it and will proceed with it on my blog.

Does it prove the LRC?  No.  Not without further analysis.  I am confident for each recurring event be it warm, cold or a precip trend, I will be able to map it to a specific part of the cycle as shown in the maps.  

Using the same idea of a cycle, applying different methods of discovery and documentation, I think it can show it beyond just maps.

For the skeptics...is this enough?  True recorded surface observations trending over a 54 day cycle?

Open question.
January 3, 2008 12:17 AM
 

siraluce said:

In regard to Notes in the Margin's remarks, I want to strongly concur with a fundamental statement he/she made:  

"First and foremost:  A cornerstone of science is corrupted when statements such as this are made by any student of science:  "This is all I ask of the other skeptics.  Prove the LRC to be untrue."  The idea is not to prove a negative - the burden of proof lies on you - the purporter of the theory.  And I still have yet to hear from any other meteorologists, climatologists, or other atmospheric scientists (outside of your studio) that buy into this idea.  If you can point me in the direction of them, I'll gladly stand corrected on that claim.  Asking someone to prove a negative - to prove your theory is wrong - is disingenuous at best, a corruption of science at worst."

This line of reasoning.. demanding that critics of an idea prove a negative.. whether it be with regard to science or anything else.. is, at best disingenuous and at worst.. and usually.. a con.  

It is simply impossible to prove a negative.  That is why propaganda of any type uses this method argument ubiquitously.  The little purple 5-legged monster is an apt example.  I can't prove it DOES NOT exist.  Nobody can.  Therefore, it probably exists!

This is not science, sorry.  But it is kind of entertaining, especially when, apparently, it is being bought into by its originators to such a degree.

I also think the non-response to my previous post on this topic by anyone, except Notes in the Margin, that is - is revealing in and of itself.

I agree.. the burdon of proof is on the originator of the 'theorey,' that is, to prove a positive.. not on the critics to do the impossible - 'prove' it doesn't exist, an impossible task because it is tantamount to trying to 'prove a negative.'   Theories, in science at least, need to be backed by objective and measurable statistics, or backed up by overwhelming circumstantial evidence at the least to have any credibility at all in the professional or scientific community   Then again, maybe this is not really science..

I will have nothing more to say on this matter, as I think the fundamental points of contention have been well laid out - at least by Notes and myself, if not others - with regard to the 'LRC.'

The bottom line is, people are free to espouse and believe what they want to espouse and believe - and they do all the time.  There need not be any scientific basis for it or objective way to prove what people espouse or believe whatsoever among the general public.  Within the scientific and professional world, though, it is a different matter entirely.  

Let the barrage begin!  

----------------------

I would love to take that statement back.  I only said it as I thought I was echoing a statement from the past from NOTES IN THE MARGIN.  I never intended that statement to be criticized so much.  Anyway, forgive me for that statement and we will move forward. 

Gary





January 3, 2008 5:56 AM
 

zeusthegreat said:

It seems like when you give yourself a 10 to 15 day window for stuff to happen, it would be pretty hard to be wrong with any cycle idea.  

When you come up with an idea that can pin point the weather on an exact date at an exact location and an exact type it might be more worthwhile.  Right now though this is all speculation in a time window that helps no one out.  Saying its going to get cold in some part of the United States helps no one out; its winter, its going to get cold somewhere

Given the explanation that the long-wave troughs and ridges may not line up exactly from cycle-to-cycle obviously casts more shadows of doubt on your theory in the scientific world, but they also give you more leeway to look like your right to the average crowd.  Everyone believe what they want to believe, even if there is no scientific evidence behind it.  Looking at todays upper air map when compared to 54 day ago may show weak relationships in the pattern, but nothing that would do forecasting at one point any good.

In the end seeing something and proving something are two big differences.  We can always see something we want to see and make an excuse for it, but we must look at all the options instead of a narrow mind view to consider proving something.

-----------------

But, I didn't say that. The long waves DO line up each time through.  And, where is there a 10-15 day window.  I leave very little wiggle room in this forecast.  Come on now!

Gary

January 3, 2008 5:56 AM
 

sertorius said:

Gary:

Good Morning to you sir!!! Currently sitting at 13 degrees this morning-you can smell the changes in the air now-there is not that cold feel but rather the hint of the warmer air this morning-we pretty much stayed steady last night after that High drifted to our East. It always amazes me how quick we can warm up with a SW or South wind flow-cold and snow are really no match for it in this area!!! Also noticed on the surface charts that the winds are really going to pick up today-have some sustained 20 MPH just west of here-well, not much to block it is there LOL!!!

I just want to throw something out there that is not totally weather related and has been stated before but I just want to hit the point again:

1. I think it says alot about you and your passion for weather that you will put your ideas regarding the LRC on a public forum and leave it there for anybody to disect and more than that welcome the questions. I know when I did all my reserach for my Master's Thesis I was very "protective" of it and was very important to me.The LRC is something that I imagine on a personal level is very important to you and to put it on an open blog is again in my opinion a very telling deal about you and your passion for weather. There is after all nothing that says you had to share this with the Blog or even on the news casts and you very well could have kept it quite until you had a chance to publish it in a scientific journal. I just think you do deserve kudos for opening this up to anybody that happens onto this blog. I am not in anyway saying anything about the questions that have arisen over the LRC just that I think you deserve kudos for putting so much of your ideas on a very public space.

2. In the same vein, I also think you deserve kudos for putting out what many would consider a very bold forecast for the next 45 days. It pretty much goes against the grain of all other long range forecasts put out throughout the U.S.-I mean predicting some people in the viewing area could recieve 50 inches of snow-that is bold indeed!!! Major kudos for putting that out. Personally I think the forecast is on an incredibly solid foundation and will indeed when we hit April verify-but, it is for sure a bold forecast and again, you have put it on a public blog that anyone can access and thus have opened yourself up to who knows what.

Just a couple of thoughts that have been stated before but I just wanted to hit them again. I really think you and the team provide a phenominal place to discuss weather and one of the reasons for that is that you share tons of information and respond to random out of there thoughts like I post everyday. You did not have to put any of this on the Blog but that you did I think speaks volumes about you and your passion to share/discuss information about the weather.

Oh-on a weather related note: I think it is telling that the GFS and EURO over all in the past 8-10 runs have been showing the trend of Canada building some very cold air over the next few weeks and around the 13th or 14th that polar vortex has been forcasted off and on to return to this side of the pole-just like on 11-15 and 10-5!! For me personally I am a full fledged believer-awesome stuff!!! It is going to be a blast following this the next 2 months!!!

Have a great day-hold onto your hats!!!

Bill holding snow and saying goodbye for a week or two knowing that absence makes the heart grow fonder in Lawrence

--------------

Bill,

Thanks!  I shouldn't have mentioned the critics in the blog yesterday.  They just find a statement that doesn't make sense to them and then I get ripped apart.  One of my resolutions this year was to not take anything personally.  Well, I am almost there.  This specific long range forecast, just issued, is something I have considered doing for a long time.  I am pretty sure that it won't be perfect.  Anyone who thinks it has a chance of perfection is crazy.  I know this.  But, it will likely be close as we know the cycle and the weather pattern for this winter.  We have a hard time predicting a storm 5 days away, not to mention an entire series of storms that is now forecast to return in about 3 to 4 weeks.

Thanks again for the supporting comments.  One of these days the critics will see that there is a lot more to my theory than they think possible.  As a Chief meteorologist at an NBC affiliate my responsibilities for the job takes up 10 to 12 hours a day, especially when you think of the blog and how it has evolved.  My opportunities to research and find more evidence and proof of the LRC are very limited and I just don't have a lot of time.  So, it will be a long haul.  We will keep moving forward.  I will present the comparison in the maps.  And, for some reason when we see the patterns line up, right on schedule according to that season's cycle length, the skeptics just don't see it.  To me it is obvious.

Gary

January 3, 2008 6:06 AM
 

johnmarr said:

gary going out on a limb with along term forecast shows reel balls and i sure appreciate you doing this other forecasters dont and should take notes it is very helpfull to us for we plow snow and it helps us make descisions on buy more equipment or not keep up the good work
January 3, 2008 8:07 AM
 

Brett34 said:

Now that is the kind of forecast I have been waiting for since I was a kid.  Very exciting, 50" inches of snow within the viewing area, can you imagine how tired your going to be?  I hope the LRC comes through on that!  It is completely obvious you are using the LRC for this new winter forecast because most of us have heard the complete opposite.  This is going to make the LRC shine when it comes through, in a big way!  
January 3, 2008 8:39 AM
 

Scott said:

Siraluce,

I would be more than happy to take a stab at any and all questions you have.  Granted, I am not Gary, but do feel very comfortable with the theory in all that is good and what I consider to be bad as well.

I would not want you to feel excluded in your questioning.  Notes can attest that I am not afraid to take a stab discussing and otherwise bringing additional discussion to the table.  That said, my question in my previous post is for you and others....

If what Gary is presenting is not doing it for you...perhaps my question/thought above may?  And if not, what would you like to see to have a warm fuzzy?

Zeus, your point is valid..and because of the type of activity present in that part of the cycle, Gary tried to be about as specific as he could.  Could Gary get more specific in that timeframe...probably, but it is a risk/reward payoff decision.

Zeus, if you have a specific date that you would like information...as anyone knows, I am not shy to give it a whirl.

All this said, I put myself out there not to be a "know it all"; but because I believe in the cycle and want to do anything possible to communicate, engage, and to get people to open up and look.   While I don't always agree with the way Gary communicates the LRC and how it gets hooked into a promotional tool, I do think it is important to continue the discussion, and to be flexible in how the pattern can be shown and communicated.

I had many of the same concerns as Notes etc.  Looking back in the blogs for the last two years, my battle with Gary is well documented.  Instead of running over the same ol' ground with each argument, I decided to take the LRC, learn as much as I could about it, and put in the time to review it...for two years.

While I have been mocked at times for my variations in exploration [which is fair], I do think finally there is something that can be shared that would enhance what Gary shows in the upper levels.  I find it satisfying to share the data and how this cycle may be viewed.  Ultimately, I think the cycle is a great tool..but still needs alot of work to get it up to "scientific" standards.

Whatcha all think?
January 3, 2008 9:09 AM
 

siraluce said:

Scott,

At risk of getting drawn into a discussion that I have already stated that do not really care to get involved in beyond what I have already contributed, I do not think there is much that can convince based on my own long-time understanding of the extreme complexities of the Earth's atmospheric processes.  These are complexities that, as has been previously pointed out here, are only sampled - or taken a 'snap shot' of if you will - in the most extremely crude and approximate fashion by even the most detailed daily analysis charts we can concoct.   That is why the models 'unwind' a number of days out into the future and, by two weeks out or so, at best only providing a WAG (guess).  

As has been pointed out here, I would be much more convinced by any real, scientifically-based research among scientists in the field of meteorology or climatology rather than those who are hobbiests or who may have a direct and vested economic interest in the viability of such an unprovable (to date, at least)  supposed long range forecasting tool.  

At risk of losing my own credibility, I will try to resist the temptation to further respond to this issue in the future and just enjoy this blog for the positive things I believe it does offer the local enthusiast.

-----------------

Great effort!  It is difficult, and if you ever do want to discuss this further, you can contact me by email at the station.  But, yes, let's enjoy the blog and as we come up with more evidence and proof the LRC then you can come in and add your input at any time.  It is just a theory!  We believe it to exist and I will continue working on other ways to prove it, show it, etc. 

Gary

January 3, 2008 9:52 AM
 

Taxman said:

"...And I still have yet to hear from any other meteorologists, climatologists, or other atmospheric scientists (outside of your studio) that buy into this idea.  If you can point me in the direction of them, I'll gladly stand corrected on that claim."

http://koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=7276516


Stand corrected?
January 3, 2008 9:52 AM
 

Taxman said:

I feel a tone of jealousy from a couple of the LRC dissenters.  Just because one thinks it does not exist because it has not been "scientifically" proven yet does not mean it does not exist.  It just has not been officially proven.

I ask all of you to continue to participate in the blog over the next 6 months and see what occurs.  The fall, winter, and spring are when the LRC seems to be the most accurate.

Regardless, as a member of the viewing public all I ask for is an as accurate forecast as possible and if an unproven scientific tool helps one achieve this then so be it.
January 3, 2008 10:09 AM
 

Alden said:

Gary, any idea which parts of the metro could see the possibly 50 inches of snow this winter?

-----------------

Alden,

Most likely the same spots that have been hit already.

Gary

January 3, 2008 10:14 AM
 

CentralOP said:

Some bloggers just want to continue to debate global warming....
There is no debate.
Global average temperatures have risen 1F over the past century.
CO2 is a greenhouse gas and is increasing at an exponential rate since it was first measured.
The only thing that is in question is how much humans are responsible for the overall warming.
January 3, 2008 10:19 AM
 

lvsnow said:

  First off, I am not a weather expert as alot of you seem to be pretending to be, no insult there, just reality.  But why so much criticism of Gary all of a sudden, His theory is just that, his theory.  Although it hasn't been completely recognized by alot of people, I believe it will in time.  My line of work, we depend on the weather forecast to be accurate, and so far, Gary has been the one to watch, and in my opinion is the most accurate.  With that being said, lay off the man.  He is passionate about what he does, as alot of you seem to be too.  Nobody is perfect, but he is closer than the rest.

--------------

Thanks for the support, but it is good to have this open discussion.  We have a lot of work to do on the LRC, but we have been using it more and more in making specific longer range predictions.  These have been very accurate the past three years.  The test is on again.  Anyway, it is good to have both sides of any discussion.

Gary

January 3, 2008 10:24 AM
 

siraluce said:

By the way, I believe that the positive positive things on this blog include the close scrutiny and verbal description and analysis (even if I may differ with them) of the various current, forecast and past weather charts that are often put on display here.  I think it is a lot of fun to look at and discuss, is educational and helps generate a lot of interest in the field of meteorology and science generally.  In this regard, I compliment the efforts put forward here and enjoy looking at and participating in this and other similar blogs.  
January 3, 2008 10:35 AM
 

f00dl3 said:

One other thing that  I don't know if you guys have thought of but the coldest winter (averaged out) that Kansas City had was the 1978 winter. Oddly enough, the tropical cyclone tracks in the Atlantic basin for that year look real familiar to what this past year's tropical cyclone tracks were.

Even more interesting is the fact that the top 5 or so coldest winters were also characterized by the prior hurricane season being fairly inactive with only one to three landfalling tropical systems. I am starting to believe that the lack of landfalling hurricanes into the United States causes less moist tropical air to be in place to counter the artic air during winter months. (On the other hand, looking at some of the warmest winters the same can be said.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1978_Atlantic_hurricane_season_map.png

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atlantic/2007/index.html
January 3, 2008 10:46 AM
 

f00dl3 said:

(For the gulf of mexico in particular)
January 3, 2008 10:58 AM
 

Scott said:

Siraluce,

I concur with your general sentiment.  I confused a bit with two statements in your last replies…

“I also think the non-response to my previous post on this topic by anyone, except Notes in the Margin, that is - is revealing in and of itself.”

Then to follow up with

“do not really care to get involved in beyond what I have already contributed”.  

This seems somewhat disingenuous.  Be that as it may, I agree that while it SEEMS unlikely any real discovery is evident, and one that certainly does not yet meet scientific standards, all the same; it seems as though there may be softer trending data that has a significant potential to improve long range forecasting.

Take it or leave it.  I left it for quite awhile before looking closer.  I am glad I did, but like all things..it is a personal choice whether or not to investigate.

If I take your thoughts on the complexity of the atmosphere and direct that line of thought in another way, it could just as easily argue that with the complexity such as it is, why forecast at all?  

I think the answer would be that we have enough understanding and data to reasonably construct forecasts based on what we understand in physics and other science in making this feasible.

If we have enough information to forecast using models and such, why is it unattainable to extend that into other concepts?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but trying to better understand your points.  Don’t get me wrong, as I mentioned above, I generally agree with your points, but I think closing your mind to other means as ideas because they don’t align with current academia, seems somewhat short sided.

Anyway..probably a moot point.  You have made your point clear that you are not interested in any exploration.  I offered.

Should you want to continue the discussion at a later point, I am open to it.  But then again…probably not much value for you working with a hobbyist.

;-)

-------------------

Scott,

I think he is going to look further into the LRC and the evidence we present.  He is just choosing to refrane from any discussion until more evidence is presented.  There is no reason to just blindly make statements.  So, I agree with his points.

Gary

January 3, 2008 11:12 AM
 

CentralOP said:

pvt_murphy,
Yes, the -55F wind chill was using the old formula about 10-15 years ago. Given the new paramters for measuring wind chill it would still be at least in the -40 to -45F range.
January 3, 2008 11:14 AM
 

Scott said:

Taxman,

I am not sure it is definititve.  Doug models his analysis after some LRC principles, but not all of them.  Same with me.  So to say another meterologist has bought in is a bit premature, though I will concede that Doug is using the same concept...

That is evident by a cycle..and a cycle of the same duration.

And to answer a question before Gary replies to this.  I know it is not the same version because of this quote from Doug.

"That means I can tell you now for the next 10 months when we will have storm systems move through that could give rain or snow."

The LRC has many times been stated to die in August.  That would be much less than the 10 months offered above.  Also, Doug does not allow for a transition period.  So, one day we have one cycle, the next day we have another..or so it seems by his comments.

Also, the LRC by definition does not focus on the surface.  Without a surface focus, it would be impossible to state any claim of surface impacts such as rain, snow, or other sensible entities.
January 3, 2008 11:19 AM
 

siraluce said:

One last thing and then I will try to be quiet for awhile, I promise!  

But - I want to respond to those who claim that those who challenge certain aspects of what is put forward here are 'jealous' or are 'picking' on Gary or are challenging certain claims because of 'sour grapes.'

When a media outlet claims to have the 'most accurate' forecast, that outlet is also claiming that others - and that means others who are professionals in the field - have a 'less accurate' forecast.  In the scientific world, this raises eyebrows, as just how is this determined?  And furthermore, what trade secret does this media outlet have that the rest of the weather community lacks?  

Obviously, there is an economic interest involved here.  This blog has even boasted about the number of blog hits or the increasing market share this media outlet is getting.   That translates into something concrete.  It also alludes to rather obvious motives for making such claims, whether those motives actually exist or not.  

When overt claims of superiority are combined with criticism of others in this scientific field, whether implied or overt, it naturally can  become a point of contention.

Gary is putting himself out there with his various theories and accuracy contentions.  As such, he should rightly expect to be challenged - and he has been.  This is not 'personal.'  Rather, it is completely fair, it would seem to me.  After all, it is not others making such initial claims.. it is Gary.  

People can choose what they want to believe,  If they want to believe one outlet or professional in the field is 'more accurate' then the rest, then fine.  But to expect such overt claims of superiority from the outlet in question to remain unchallenged is, I believe, asking for a lot.  Also, making such claims, no matter who makes them, doesn't necessarily make them so - indeed, if such claims can even be determined in a meaningful or objective way at all.  

So this is not about some sort of meanness of spirit - that is, if it is kept reasonably civil - but merely in challenging self-serving claims, whether they promote oneself or point implicitly accusatory fingers at others.  This is what can become somewhat objectionable at times, IMHO.

---------------------

I almost 100% agree.  We lay it out there and our claims of being the most accurate can be tested by anyone.  Just compare the forecasts.  Anyway, there is no economic interest at all when we make these claims!  I am sure there are other very good weather forecasters out there!  We take on this challenge every day.

Gary






January 3, 2008 11:25 AM
 

Scott said:

I fully agree.
January 3, 2008 11:30 AM
 

PK in LS said:

New blog.
January 3, 2008 11:37 AM
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