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Cold, Precipitation Issues, & How Snow, Sleet, and Freezing Rain Occur

Make sure to watch NBC Action News Weekends at 8am, 5 & 10pm for the latest weather information.  Keep in mind NBC Action Weather Plus is always on!
 
*******************
Winter Storm Watch in effect for Johnson, Pettis, Bates, & Henry Counties in Missouri for Monday.  A chance of freezing rain, sleet, and snow are all possible.  More to come on this situation today.  Until then feel free to ask questions.  The weather continues to be exciting!
 
*******************
 

Arctic air is pouring into the region tonight as temperatures are falling from the 30s to the 20s.  Lows should drop into the teens in many spots tonight, and even a few areas could see single digit lows.  A few flurries or a snow shower isn't out of the question tonight, with a dusting possible in spots.  With winds around 10-25mph we can expect wind chill values in the neighborhood of -10 to +5 overnight.  A Wind Chill Advisory is in effect for a few counties in the viewing area near the Iowa border, including the town of Trenton.

With arctic high pressure nearby on Sunday highs will generally be in the low 20s around the metro area with a north to northeast wind.  It will certainly remind us that winter is not over quite yet!  The cold air and just how far south it settles in will be key for the Monday storm.  Let's discuss a few things in regards to this storm.  First off, as of right now the precipitation totals look to be under 0.25" in almost all areas, and many spots with a trace to 0.10".  Here is a quick look at some of the important data in regards to precipitation type.

Data is from the 12Z NAM & GFS for KCI.

Total Forecast Precipitation:

NAM  0.08"     GFS  0.07"

NAM 850mb Temp(C):  Noon Monday: -1.2    6pm Monday:  +0.6

GFS 850mb  Temp(C):   Noon Monday: +1.6   6pm Monday:  +0.6

Surface temps for both models are sub-freezing.  The NAM was in the lows 20s and the GFS about 24-30 degrees.

So what does this translate too?  In order for freezing rain or sleet to occur a warm layer must exist and by looking at this data straight from the model there is a warm layer...especially on the GFS.  Both models above would support a freezing rain/sleet/maybe mix scenrio.  If the warm layer is shallow then sleet would occur, if the warm layer is deeper, then freezing rain.  While at the moment it looks like this won't even be close to a repeat of 2002 or even earlier this season the storm in St. Joe, there could be problems on the roads as surface temps will be sub freezing.  Earlier this year there was a trace of freezing rain in parts of Kansas City and it caused numerous accidents. 

On Monday some areas may see a mix or mainly snow, at this moment those locations look to be north of Kansas City.  This storm is still 36 hours away and will change its look many times.  But with the cold air settling in and a slow departure on Monday with moisture moving in I wanted to make people aware that some freezing rain or sleet is possible on Monday.  A slight shift one way or another would lead to snow in some areas or maybe more or less precip. in others.  Regardless, the latest 00Z NAM still is showing light precip. totals for the area.  Below is the total liquid precipitation forecast from the 00Z NAM.

nam5.gif


If anyone is wondering how snow, sleet, or freezing rain forms please check out the information below courtesy of the NWS.  I found this in an online tutorial.  Have a great night and enjoy the cold air on Sunday!



Winter precipitation types and their environments

Published Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:51 PM by Jeremy WxPlus

Comments

 

Brent said:

I'm the first post!

I hope...lol
February 9, 2008 8:39 PM
 

chfs327 said:

well done
February 9, 2008 8:40 PM
 

Brent said:

nice blog.....

looks like I'm winning chfs237!
February 9, 2008 8:41 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

It is NOT going to be a MAJOR ice storm. It might be minor. Jeremy, When is the next chance for an accumulating SNOW?

**************

There could be some accumulation on Monday.  Can't write it off yet.  Thursday/Friday has more potential at the moment.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 8:44 PM
 

Alden said:

Fantastic blog! Very easy to understand.

**************

Thanks Alden...glad you enjoyed.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 8:46 PM
 

amscoking said:

thursday night into friday according to the weather page and models. doesn't look like a major storm...more precip is supposed to be north.

*************

The last time the version of the Thursday storm came thru the heaviest was focused north. 

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 8:48 PM
 

stjoelawyer said:

fluries for STJOE this looks to be backbuilding right to the south of STJ and even KC  it takes a shift to the SW to develop to put any real moisture in it like .30-.50 into the area.  Just do not see it on this one.

Sorry kid chfs427 you have school now TH...FRI  are different. . .  
February 9, 2008 8:49 PM
 

LRCfan said:

yep st.joseph thursday and friday lol

*************

It would be crazy...but I don't think it would surprise anyone.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 8:50 PM
 

Brent said:

I win the money!

too bad I didn't bet more...
February 9, 2008 8:51 PM
 

chfs327 said:

I only had a 3 day week anyway. we get off thursday and friday and then dont have school next monday
February 9, 2008 8:56 PM
 

MrSteve said:

When are consistent spring like temps going to arrive.

March 1 ?

*****************

I think after about the 17th it should warm up.  Once the active part of the cycle is over.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:05 PM
 

MrSteve said:

I know wishful thinking.
February 9, 2008 9:10 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

Im liking the storm for next Thursday-Friday. Snow! Snow! Snow! Im really hoping of the 8 incher. I cant be disappointed with the winter up north. Here in Parkville we have had 19.2 inches so far. Does it look like a BIG storm for Thursday-Friday?
February 9, 2008 9:10 PM
 

MrSteve said:

I think after about the 17th it should warm up.  Once the active part of the cycle is over.

Jeremy

*******************

Beautiful. It's going to take a month at least for me to thaw out.
February 9, 2008 9:11 PM
 

chfs327 said:

I call dibs on Feb 24th or 23rd being in the 70s
February 9, 2008 9:12 PM
 

sertorius said:

Jeremy:

Good late evening to you sir!! I hope your night is going well!!! Currently at 27 degrees.  Awesome Blog entry-what a great read!!! I really like thos graphs!!!

The old Igloo has now been termed a snow pillow by my oldest son!!!

Some random musings on this developing frigid night-they are probably way far from where I should stay given my knowledge, but here it goes!! (oops-there goes the limb again!!)

1. The cold air tonight: it is fascinating watching this come down through our area but more so how much trouble it is having diving down through Western Kansas-at the 1Z surface charts it is getting hung up just at Goodland. There is a surface High at 1023 MB sitting along the Red River and it is really pumping some warmer air into Western Kansas and thus helping push this colder air on a more eastern trajectory. It is still in the middle 40’s in Dodge City right now and Goodland was still at 35. Will be interesting to watch if the cold air can clear the Oklahoma Panhandle or not. It is cold and we have been hit with the cold air for sure, but have missed the brunt of it. Will also be fun to watch how long it can hang in here. There is not a snow pack really left so that is kind of a non issue.

2. The “storm” for Monday/Tuesday is the one from 12-22 if I am keeping score correctly at home (a big if LOL) but it also came through the cycle on 10-29. I think this time we are kind of doing a Steelers Wheel and are going to be stuck in the middle of those two solutions. On 10-29 the energy was in Canada and all we got was the cold air (think of how cold Halloween night was). Of course on 12-22 with a stronger jet and colder air in Canada the North and West parts of the viewing area caught lightening in a bottle and the vort was digging just as the cold air was coming in. Lawrence had the front pass through on Friday night 12-21 and then precipitation began 12 hours later. This time, the vort. Is kind of lollygagging down the pike and looks to dig in Central Kansas instead of New Mexico as on 12-21. Thus, we are splitting this time through between 12-22 and 10-29-we have a digging vort. As on 12-21 but much weaker like on 10-29. With this solution also, the precipitation looks to begin almost 36 hours after the front arrived-that is a big difference in timing of cold air and precipitation.


3.  Given 1 and 2, this does make sense. (again, I think??) With the cold air not being strongly established in Western Kansas the vort. Which as of now based on the 0z RUC and water vapor imagery is still up around Vancouver should slide down the back side of the cold air and then when it hits close to the long wave trough it will begin to dig and turn. However, it will begin this turn too close to us to make a big storm for here.


4.  Number 3 aside, it is only Saturday night and the cold air is here and continues to move down. Many things can change and more importantly, any amount of frozen precipitation can be mess. Furthermore, if the heavier precipitation bands actually track a bit further North with some of the colder air in place it can be totally different.

5. One last thought: the LRC had this storm-we have seen its cousins twice this winter and will see it again in March-I honestly believe that!!! However, no storm is going to be the same each time through-the parameters will be there but the actual results will vary. The only way I will see thunder this time is if warm air surges in here and sets off thunder storms with plain rain-I will not see thunder snow nor did I ever expect to.


Of course, the caveat with all of this is that I am just a hobbyist and I do not even play a meteorologist on TV nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so the grain o salt o meter needs to be turned to full throttle!!! I hope they do make a little sense and that I am not sitting at Strong Hall while the game is in Allen Field House but I just thought hey, it is Saturday night and the like Harry Chapin the new jobs a hassle and the kids have the flu so I decided why not go out on a limb!!!! That said, be gentle!!!


Have a great night-this is going to be fun to track no matter what happens-ok, so my nose just grew a little bit because of course I want to see another winter storm LOL. I have not looked beyond Tuesday and will hold off until Tuesday for that-there will be a storm of some sort just as there was on 12-28 and then we will have a cold spell (cold is relative-cold in mid February is different than cold in mid January) before we really blow torch. But for now, there is plenty to for my little hobbyist mind to wrap itself around-if I look at too much I might wind up like the Robot on Lost in Space and start flailing around!!!! LOL


Again, have a great night and sorry so long-I kind of went crazy again!!!!

Bill in Lawrence

***************

Bill,

I might be wrong but the elevation diffence in western Kansas might prevent/slow down the cold air from pushing to far west.  Some areas are 4000 ft. in elevation.  Especially since this is on a east-southeast progression.  Also, the front stalls in the wesern Plains and redevelops as a warm front and heads east late Sunday into Monday.

I'm not overly excited about Monday, but it just doesn't take much freezing rain to cause problems.  The 00Z NAM produces more sleet than anything else.  Maybe the warm layer is shallow enough to keep sleet around.

Enjoy your night.  Looks like my Badger hoops team is going down tonight.  Really didn't see it coming at home, but at #8 they are a little overrated in my estimation.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:13 PM
 

maryb said:

Great, informative blog tonight.  Really liked the graphics.....
February 9, 2008 9:15 PM
 

xrayfire01 said:

Gary,

You said back on January 2nd in your 45-day forecast....
"Then it is back to a long stretch of winter, the coldest air of the season, and likely a few snowstorms that will be bigger, more widespread, and possibly record breaking."

Now I was under the assumption that there would be more widespread cold temperatures around.  And with these last two storm systems alot of the people in the southern viewing area were trying to fight off the rain.  The second storm had some pretty heavy rain showers before the snow event.  Based on what you said in your 45-day forecast I was assuming that these storms would/should have been all snow.  Is there any explanation you have for having the rain followed by the snow when you said "a few snowstorms that will be bigger, more widespread, and possibly record breaking?"

I don't doubt the LRC, but I can't find any reason why I can fully accept it 100%?!?

****************

I would pose this question to Gary.  He will be back in the blog on Monday.  The LRC will always have people who question it or doubt it and that is okay.  But we use it to help us with long range forecasts and so far I don't see a better method available in my experience.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:22 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Jeremy,
Great blog! :)  Thanks for explaining the differences between freezing rain/sleet/snow!  We really need a FAQ that includes that info. :)

Gary's long range forecast has been pretty accurate.  It's not quite perfect but as close as you can get.

Kristi

*************

Thanks Kristi.  Gary's forecast isn't perfect and he admited that.  But it has been pretty close to reality. 

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:24 PM
 

sherman said:

looks like a dusting of snow could come and get us tonight in KC
February 9, 2008 9:30 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

   Hello Jeremy, Is there a chance of snow tonight, look like snow up north on LIVE ESP

**************

Yeah...I mentioned a chance of flurries/snow showers in the blog and also on the WxPlus update.  Will talk about it at 10 too.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:31 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

is anything falling in St Joe area? any from st joe

February 9, 2008 9:35 PM
 

rodeomann65 said:

Jeremy  do you see any real big snows come are way befor the winter is over.

**************

Thurs/Fri has potential as a storm.  A big snow producer though...that's another question.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:36 PM
 

sherman said:

Looks like west of Saint joe is getting a good little snow shower.

******************

I think it is snowing up there, many ground obs in NE are reporting flurries or light snow.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:39 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

WOW, a cold breezy night!  The snow has lost a lot of its depth but it still covers most of the ground!!  Interestingly it has with the return of the cold air refrozen into more of a hard crunchy ice and the well traveled areas of snow that were packed down into slush on the sidewalks are now glaciers in the form of thousands of foot prints, looking at the radar and some of the surface obs. reporting light snow in Ks./Neb. it looks like we may even have a flake or two to go with the cold air tonight, and the LRC 2007-2008 keeps on a rollin' here in St. Joe!;)  the way things are going up here, by April we are going to have more pot-holes on our roads than the moon has craters!!!LOL
February 9, 2008 9:51 PM
 

twister11 said:

I really dont see why we are getting excied over the thursday storm... it looks like nothing on the GFS

***************

I'm not too excited, but it does have potential.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 9:57 PM
 

stjoemom said:

nothing in st. joe as of yet...personally i feel we have had enough of winter up here...i usually like the colder weather but this year has taken its toll on me

**************

Thanks...probably some aloft and the rest will fall as flurries.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 10:00 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Nice Post Jeremy!

***********

Thanks Andrew...hope your new sister is doing well!

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 10:04 PM
 

rodeomann65 said:

Jeremy where can i look at the storms that the other biogers look at and see what they are looking at to see the storms are coming this way can you please tel me how to do this  thank so much   or if Bill can tell me i would like to know how to do this   thank you agian  Dennis

**************

Dennis,

Check out this site.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/

The 00Z models are the most recent as of this post.

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 10:04 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Well the GFS looks real interesting.  I could be wrong but it seems the GFS and NAM have way underestimated the QPF 36 and 24 hours out for almost all of our storms this season.  Anyway, we'll see what happens, but I'm sure everything will go north or west of KC, whatever it is.

****************

Both look light right now, but if the storm digs a bit more...bingo!

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 10:08 PM
 

nwmissourigal said:

The temp has dropped like a rock here north of Lawson. On the last blog everyone was talking about ice storms. I don't know how many of you would remember this particular storm, but in was in April of 1973. I was a senior in high school and this storm was devasting. I still have the pictures my mom took of all the damge this storm did. We lived on a farm and trying to get around to check cattle and horses was just terrible. We were out of school for a couple of weeks and when we returned to school it was about time to graduate. I have never seen an ice storm as bad as that one. This ice storm broke down 100 year old oak. We couldn't get the car doors open and we like to never got the door to the house open. We were lucky because we didn't have to go to town for food or anything like that, (like we do today) because we raised all of our food on the farm. I know that we lost several spring calves and a couple of young colts and some sheep in that storm. I hope I never see anything like that again. We did not have electricity for close to 3 weeks. Thank God for wood stoves. As kids we did have fun sliding around on the ice, but now that I am older, NO ICE!!!

Thanks for the great blog today Jeremy. I just keep learning from this blog. Have a great evening.

nwmissourigal

*************

Thanks for checking in and sharing your story!  I don't remember that one:)

Jeremy

February 9, 2008 10:13 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Nasty weather
Excatly. Thats why I have been telling everyone on this storm. Im telling you guys that Its gonna be a Major icestorm. You have to wait untill around 12-18 hours out. Remember when they said in the Last Monday night that It would be 2-5 inches.

Then they Boosted up the Snowfall totals back up to 6-10 inches for the KC metro. Then back down to 3.

Prime example of going and waiting for a better model. The Ice accumalation is gonna be pretty high with 1/2 inch of ice around the Downtown area.
February 9, 2008 10:17 PM
 

nastyweather said:

The thing about ice is it doesn't even take 1/4" to cause massive problem in KC during the day.  People are worried about power going out, but I'm more worried about the morons on the roads who have enough trouble driving on a normal day. *************** The precip. looks light, but you nailed some of the concerns pretty well! Jeremy
February 9, 2008 10:22 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

Before I hit the hay, just wanted to say that I looked out side and there are a couple of small flurries floating around!!, In St. Joe. ************ Thanks for the report! Looks like most of this is aloft. Jeremy
February 9, 2008 10:29 PM
 

sedmo said:

Nastyweather:  I am glad to hear that KC has its share of moron's on the road.  I thought it was only Sedalia that had its share.  It seems here people forget how to drive on this stuff.  I have 2 words to tell everyone..SLOW DOWN!!  Ok, thats me ranting and raving for the day.  
February 9, 2008 10:36 PM
 

RockportHarbor said:

Oh wow, thanks to the other bloggers and thanks to Jeremy for giving me ALL the answers to my questions!  It's so much more complex than I had thought.... I didn't realize how far rain/snow had to fall and all that has to come together for it to be right.

VERY interesting.  Thank you very much :) ************* My pleasure...thanks for stopping by the blog today! Jeremy
February 9, 2008 10:57 PM
 

twister11 said:

wow.. just took a look at the NWS forecast, they said Knob Noster could receive .25-.50 of freezing rain/rain. are we looking at a warning here?
February 9, 2008 11:13 PM
 

farmgirl said:

It's very starry and breezy here in La Cygne. Is this freezing rain system going to be a morning and then late evening issue with rain during the day time... or just plain messy all day Monday? What will the winds be like with this storm too?? If it's starts to ice up, sure doen't want the powerlines and trees to break.
February 9, 2008 11:16 PM
 

RickMckc said:

Very light flurries in the Northland ...
February 9, 2008 11:42 PM
 

Scott said:

Jeremy - nice find with the NWS graphic.  I would love for you to show how this can be read via a skew-T.  This would be a fairly easy one to show.  I think many would find this very informative.  Here is a link you can reference that does much of the legwork.


http://aviationweather.gov/general/pubs/front/docs/feb-04.pdf

Pages 1-4

If people can get the basic principles of the skew and what it shows, I think it would be very valuable for folks when we get to severe season in finding both surface and mid level instability.

Just an idea.

****************

Maybe that can be your guest blog down the road;)

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 12:19 AM
 

StormWyndd said:

Scott,
Thanks for that link.  That's a better explaination than the others I've found.
February 10, 2008 2:50 AM
 

tirzah2 said:

I know most of the blogs here are about tomorrow's possible iciing but I would like to ask a question about snow.  

What causes the size of the snow flakes?  When we had our last snow the atmosphere was 100% saturated yet the flakes were  microscopic in size.  I would think the more moisture that is available the larger the flakes and yet it seems that most of our snows here ususally have those microscopic size flakes.  Despite the moisture content.

Thanks and hope tomorrow is all snow.

***************

Much of this has to do with the temperatures above the ground at different levels of the atmosphere.  I'll try to get more info and maybe put something about this in the blog.  Kind of like the explainer graphic with the precip. types.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 6:32 AM
 

sertorius said:

Jeremy:

Good cold morning to you!!! Hioe you have a good day!!!

Currently sitting at 12 degrees under clear skies with a bit of a breeze still blowing-it is cold outside this morning!!!!

A couple of random musings this morning:

1. The front made it into the Texas Panhandle and now looks to be stuck-it sure had more steam to the East!!!!!

2. I'm not sure, but looking at 0z and 6Z GFS it seems like maybe the low is trying to dig a bit further to the west-not much but just a bit?? Of course, I could just be seeing things-kind of like how Winston saw that 4 + 4=5 in 1984 LOL

3. Looking at the soundings for Topeka there is a warm layer at the 850-800 level that is about 35-37 degrees-I think that would cause more sleet than freezing rain as the layer is not that big. However, the surface remains below freezing so whatever does fall should be frozen in some form. The GFS has for sure backed off the strong warm front idea it had 24 hours ago which makes more sense given the LRC

4. Looking at the water vapor imagery I think you can see mositure slowly forming to our south and west but man that strom is not diving at all-it is not even doing the Nestee Plunge LOL-it is kind of strolling along-maybe it is singing Tip Toe through the tulips with Tiny Tim!!!

5. In the end, this will be interesting to follow the radar and see just how much mositure does indeed make it up here-we appear to be pretty saturated per GFS soundings by tomorrow morning.

6. One thing I am trying to keep in mind and has been mentioned on the Blog you do not need 1/4 inch of ice to have problems-.10 of ice on the road ways with as cold as they will be can make them pretty slick-one does not need a massive ice storm to have ice/sleet cause problems.

7. Finally: nwmissourigal: I do remmeber that ice strom of 1973-I was very young but rememeber a tree fell on our power line and we were without power for about a week-that was really the first true weather event I can remember and prob. why I love winter weather so much-as a kid without concerns, I loved it!!!!

Have a great day Jeremy-awesome that we have another scenario to track-it most likely will not be much at all, but will once again provide an opportunity to discuss the weather and learn!!! Sometimes just fishing is better than really catching a fish!!!

Bill in Lawrence

**************

Bill,

Thanks for checking in this morning.  Both the NAM & GFS are pretty cold for Monday.  This may help to keep more of the precip. in the form of sleet or snow in spots, and focus the freezing rain & sleet more to the south or southeast of Kansas City.  The warm layer and its depth will be key to what happens.  I'm beginning to see more sleet than freezing rain for KC, but we'll what happens.  The precip. totals for KC still look pretty light.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 6:57 AM
 

kurt said:

In reference to the size of snowflakes, the biggest snowflakes I remember recently were the ones that fell in the very short burst of 4 to 6 hours on December 22nd.  That had to be the perfect set up at the perfect time to produce heavy thundersnow.  Also the temperatures must have been just right in all the layers to produce such large flakes of snow (some were almost the size of the palm of my hand at times).

This winter will be one to remember for along time for me.  It's been many years since we have had snow cover for so long as well as the frequency and amount of snow.

**************

Even though temperatures have been somewhat close to average, areas to the north have had a very harsh winter with some areas closing in on 40" of snow!

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 8:39 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Bill is it true that Lawrence no longer has any salt for the road crews to put down?  I heard something about that, which if true, is really scary.

Following along with what I said last night, I still contend the models are still under on the amount of moisture for this storm and the location is off too.  I remember on the Dec 22nd storm the NWS had most of us in a Heavy Snow Warning and we were lucky to get 2-3" of snow.

Regardless, tomorrow its going to be an absolute nightmare on the roads in KC.

******************

If the cold air hangs in longer at 850 that could help a lot.  That would mean more sleet or snow versus freezing rain.  Frz. rain chances are higher southeast of KC for Monday.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 9:02 AM
 

Brent said:

the watches are out for southeast of KC!

I'm not included though....

***************

Not yet, but right now the heaviest total precip. is to your southeast.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 9:13 AM
 

lvsnow said:

Us north gonna be left out of this storm? It was 11 degrees here at 8 this morning.  But i see the winter storm watch is for south of K.C.  Just wondered if Leavenworth was gonna be in it
February 10, 2008 9:23 AM
 

Nick Rau said:

Well this next event still looks weak for us...
the other event looks a bit wetter, but it looks weird on the 500mbar vort to me, but it will all look different on the next run, man it is cold out there! ************ Thurs/Fri still looks pretty odd on the GFS...I think it will get more organized with a couple of days. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 9:33 AM
 

bellgolf08 said:

i think it would be great if someone would guest blog on how to read Skew-T charts. i have been trying to figure them out myself.
February 10, 2008 9:34 AM
 

Brent said:

the precip from this storm has always been light....no more than .50 inches of anything....but can that change with a few model runs Jeremy? ************* There is always a possibility. But it looks doubtful at the moment. Heaviest precip. totals are likely to occur southeast of KC. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 10:07 AM
 

stjoelawyer said:

Several people bring up good points about this event as compared to 22 Dec; Winter Storm Watch was in effect for this same area to our southeast by 100 miles and then boom it exploded just to our southwest and moved in that odd NNE direction getting Topeka, Lawrence, Leavenworth and Stjoe; but it just can't keep happening.

It HAPPENED JUST LAST Tues and Wed . . went to bed expecting a little and woke up Mon to W STRM WATCH Monday.  40.8 inches of snow with a crusty 4 inches still on the ground is a winter to compare to those in the late 70s and early 80s.

Like Nick said our streets have taken a huge hit with all the moisture in them and the freeze thaw cycle recurring . . . just when publicworks crews are getting ready to do pot hole repair, bang it storms again and cold patching just does not hold.

I to remember 1973 ice event no as bad as Albany here i had a paper route and had to crawl it was so bad or walk in the grass.    
February 10, 2008 10:15 AM
 

chfs327 said:

So far the Models are showing intenifing and more accumlation across the metro area. Watch as it will start to rise into the next couple of hours
February 10, 2008 10:20 AM
 

Bob from Lawrence said:

Nastyweather....you had asked about Lawrence being out of road salt. I've pasted in the latest information from our local paper.  Story carries a date of 2/8.
>>>
Chuck Soules, director of the city’s public works department, said Lawrence snow plowing crews are still without road salt, which means that crews are struggling to keep some city streets ice-free.

But Soules said he is now optimistic that the city will receive a shipment of the ice-melting mineral by week’s end. That’s an improvement from the situation on Wednesday when the city wasn’t sure when or whether it would get another salt shipment.

Salt supplies became depleted after a string of winter storms. Soules said the city still technically has a bit of salt left but is saving it to do emergency treatments on some of the city’s steepest hills.

Soules rated the city’s major streets as being in good condition, and he said plowing work and sand spreading would be continuing.
>>>

Bob
************** Bob, I know many cities are in this same situation. Where I use to work in Madison, WI the budget is being slammed by what will likely go down as the snowiest winter on record. Right now at around 74"! Jeremy
February 10, 2008 10:29 AM
 

Brent said:

still holding out hope huh chfs?
February 10, 2008 10:36 AM
 

sertorius said:

Jeremy:

Good mid morning to you!! Still sitting at 14 degrees with full sun-that is cold for 2-10!!!!

Couple quick quirky thoughts:

1. Man, that arctic High sitting over Northern South Dakota is quites strong-wow 1043MB-that is pretty strong!!!

2. It think (think being the optimum word here!!! LOL) the 12z GFS is hinting at a stronger storm for Monday/Tuesday and is showing the storm trying to dig a bit further west but the main brunt will be off to the South and East-some fairly impressive QPF on the 12Z run. However, with those Highs sitting off to the North East will be hard for the strom to track much further North.

2. It is kind of crazy when you think that in the past 10 days the Kansas City Metro has just missed on 3 fairly significant winter events. A track of 50-100 miles in a more north direction and people's thoughts of this past 10 days would be significantly different. True, Monday/Tuesday has yet to occur, but it is a pretty safe bet that the worst is going to be 50-100 miles south/south east of the Metro. In fact, it appears that southern Missouri from Springfield to the Current River could be close to a signidicant ice/sleet event. If the GFS is off by 100 miles with the qpf field our Monday/Tuesday will be totally different. However, with the High Pressure systems sitting over the Appalachins and one in North Dakota it appears the GFS is on target. Lawrence is lucky in that we will wind up 1 out of 3 with these sytems but imgaine if we had hit all three!!! Just a random thought!!

Have a great afternoon-still will be fun to track this and again, a great storm to discuss and learn from!!! Again, sometimes the fishing is actually more fun than the catching!!!!

Bill in Lawrence ************ Bill, The GFS is pretty light for MCI & LWC for Monday. Doesn't take much tough. Hopefully the cold air wins aloft! Jeremy
February 10, 2008 10:51 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Ok, if you want some proof of a northern shift in this storm look no further than the GFS at the 00z and 12z for total percip ending at 6am on Tues.  You'll noticed the heavy moisture was over northern Arkansas on the first one, but then it shifts north to southern Missouri in the model run 12 hours later.
http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/namer/gfs/00/images/gfs_p60_060m.gif
http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/namer/gfs/12/images/gfs_p48_048m.gif

I'm holding strong for the same areas getting hit hard from this storm.
February 10, 2008 11:04 AM
 

StormWyndd said:

I remember the ice storm of '73 because it nearly killed me.  We'd gotten out of school early that day, and I'd just finished watching my favorite tv show.  Got up and walked into the other room and the tv blew up!  Literally! It sent glass flying all over the room.  

Most of the electric sockets blew out too, some of the bulbs in the lamps exploded.  I'll never forget that, and we were really lucky the house didn't catch on fire.

What happened?  The tree limb in the neighbors yard loaded up with ice and came down on the power line with the transformer.  It sent all the voltage into our fuse box (which it melted).  We were without power almost a week.  

As much as I'd rather see warm temps this week, I'll take more snow over ice anyday.  :o)



February 10, 2008 11:07 AM
 

chiefsfan said:

  Hello Jeremy,  Just wondering what time frame are we look at when the precip will start, also when do you think it should stop here in downtown KC, i hope we don't get problems with the icey conditions, thanks. ************** At the moment I think the precip. would start after the morning commute. Need to watch it though. Best time from is afternoon/evening. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 11:10 AM
 

Bob from Lawrence said:

Dang Jeremy...74".   As much as I might like to live through that scenario once, I doubt if the woman I'm married too would say the same.

And just how long do you figure it will be before the last of it might melt.  

Wait a minute...I do believe I just heard the sound of a glacial ice flow headed this direction from that state.  So much for a 2008 melt off.



************** Even though Madison has seen a lot of snow, the snow pack has melted at times this winter. The snow earlier in the week did provide them with a snow pack of 10" though:) Jeremy
February 10, 2008 11:20 AM
 

chiefsfan said:

Hello nasty weather, so are you think downtown KC might get more ice, with it  north shift or am i wrong
February 10, 2008 11:23 AM
 

Brett34 said:

Hello Bloggers and NBC
A Winter Storm Watch issued south of our area???  Can that be true.
I am curious, do you think that this will shift north?  Follow the true pattern?
I find it hard to believe that any storm will follow that track this year.  LOL.  
Bloggers/NBC what are your thoughts, it has shifted north everysingle time, if this one shifted north it would focus it right on top of us!  
I will check in later, have a good day everyone.  I still cant believe the strongest will go south, that hasn't happened yet.  
February 10, 2008 11:34 AM
 

Brett34 said:

I really think this will shift north guys, this is abnormal for this year, I think.
February 10, 2008 11:35 AM
 

Johnk24 said:

If it ended up being all snow do you think we would get a lot? ************* Keep in mind the liquid forecast amount is less than 0.10" for KC. That wouldn't be much snow, but enough to cause some slippery roads. Precip. looks light at the moment for KC. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 11:36 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Chiefsfan I have no idea if that means more ice, but I do think there will have more of whatever precip it turns out to be.
February 10, 2008 11:52 AM
 

Brent said:

It looks like more than .10 for me Jeremy....
February 10, 2008 11:59 AM
 

littleladybugs said:

what does it look like for parkville/farley area monday?
will the roads be bad?
February 10, 2008 12:00 PM
 

Brett34 said:

Well, I bet it shifts further NW, if anything happens at all, less then .10 isnt much, but its enough to have fun and watch develop!  
February 10, 2008 12:01 PM
 

twister11 said:

What does the total precip look like for Knob? Anyone know?
February 10, 2008 12:06 PM
 

Brent said:

Knob knoster looks to have even more than I get...,but I don't know what the colors actually equivilent to...but the NWS says .25 to .50
February 10, 2008 12:13 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

  Hello Jeremy,  So you think at the moment the precip will end in evening, so your not thinking like a 12 hours precip thing, I know it could change, im hope it's in and out quickly before problems occur, Thanks for the time, sorry for all the questions all the time
February 10, 2008 12:13 PM
 

Brent said:

Jeremy, the graphic you showed at 8:15 this morning wasn't too bad.....

the one that illustrated the freezing rain.
I noticed you  used it over 3 or 4 weathercasts...lol
I guess stations tend to do that with their graphics...re use them so that everyone can see it.
February 10, 2008 12:15 PM
 

chfs327 said:

I win
February 10, 2008 12:16 PM
 

stjoelawyer said:

Nastyweather it has not moved farther north it has for the lack of a better word pivotted to the NW or spun into KS, showing a development to our west but not a northern progression yet.>>>>> keep in mind I am 45 miles north of downtown 33 miles north of KCI. >>>>>>  I observe tis one and wait until TH & FRI...teD STILL 12.4 OUT
February 10, 2008 12:18 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Is there a chance of freezing rain north of I-70, specifically Linn County Missouri??
February 10, 2008 12:21 PM
 

Brent said:

"Heaviest precip. totals are likely to occur southeast of KC. Jeremy"

I live southeast of KC..... ************ Brent...I'm well aware of that. And you will likely see more precip. than KC, but not as much as those locations in the watch area. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 12:22 PM
 

Brent said:

"chfs327 said:
I win"
How so? *********** Anymore posts about the bet will be deleted. I asked you to PM each other yesterday. End of discussion. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 12:22 PM
 

bulldog said:

ANYONE ANYONE!  My sister and family are leaving for Florida tomorrow and taking 70 to St. Louis before going south.  I can't figure out if who is going to get the precip first.  They were going to leave around 4 tomorrow night.  Should they leave in the morning?  I will appreciate all advice!
Audrey *********** If they could leave by 6am they may be okay. Hoping things hold off until mid to late morning. Jeremy
February 10, 2008 12:24 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Brent. I was kidding.

With this storm going to move  north like it always does we will see a major storm develope in front of us and watch as we will get all ice in the metro
February 10, 2008 12:30 PM
 

sertorius said:

Jeremy:

Just me again-I'm the old Saturday Night Live Skit the people who wouldn't leave-mind if I borrow your phone..No....LOL

Still sitting at 16 degrees at 12:10 with full sunshine-wow!! One of my kids has the flu and I'm prepping some classes but of course I am looking at surface charts every hour LOL

I'm going to try and take a stab at something that is just conjecture for sure but thought I would just throw it out there-hope it makes some sense!!!

1. Looking at the 17Z surface charts, I think that the front/wind shift line is located from North Eastern New Mexico through the Pan Handle of Texas back through about Dallas then extends into South Central Arkansas. Also, I think the surface low that will responsible for most of the lift has now formed in North East New Mexico.

2. There is some southerly flow into Texas and Arkansas so the front has probably gone as far south as it will go. The other feature is that the surface high in South Dakota is incredibly strong.

3. Given one and two, I think that the surface low will follow that front and track right up it or maybe just a bit to the North of it and that low I think is what will be the biggest precipiatation maker. Thus, if one wants a bigger precipitation maker here in the Lawrence to Kansas City area, then one needs that front to jump back North to the Kansas Oklahoma border into just south of Springfield.

4. The 12Z GFS does have the front back North into South Central Kansas as Dodge City looks to warm into the 50's tomorrow-however, the GFS has the front only move to about Oklahoma City to about Hot Springs Arkansas-the front is not forecasted to move very far North from say East of Oklahoma City. The other factor with this is that the High Pressure to our North is very strong and thus it will make it hard for that front to move very far back to the north

5. Combine all these with the fact that this Upper Level energy will not really dig until it hits Colby, Kansas and you have a more southern and eastern type storm.

These are just some random thoughts I have had today and for sure, they are the thoughts of just a hobbyist so they should be taken with a huge grain of salt!! If one wants more precipitation, then one I think needs to hope that the front will jump a bit further North. Given the High Pressure to our North this seems unlikely but will be fun to watch it anyway!!!!! I hope it is ok to put something that is such conjecture out here but again these are just some things I have been thinking about today!!!

Have a great afternoon!!

Bill in Lawrence
February 10, 2008 12:34 PM
 

Brent said:

"  chfs327 said:
Brent. I was kidding.

With this storm going to move  north like it always does we will see a major storm develope in front of us and watch as we will get all ice in the metro "

hmmm its possible...it always does go north...I'm surprised that the day before, the weather people still aren't really telling us what to expect...they should know by now.
February 10, 2008 12:38 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Oh well. Im still counting for the Major icestorm
February 10, 2008 1:19 PM
 

Dwxtracker said:

chfs:
I think you're just wishcasting now. I don't see any evidence of a major ice storm here in the city now. Still just looking at light precip amounts here.
February 10, 2008 1:32 PM
 

Brent said:

Ok Jeremy, I got the point...I'll discuss it through PM now.

***************

Thank you.

February 10, 2008 1:41 PM
 

LRCfan said:

I agree dwxtracker nothing major out of this but if we do get light glazing here it could be slick on the roadways anything significant would be further south toward the ozarks maybe.
February 10, 2008 1:43 PM
 

bulldog said:

Thank you Jeremy!  They are leaving tonight now!

***************

Better to be on the safe side in my opinion.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 1:53 PM
 

stjoelawyer said:

MY DEW POINT IS -4 DEGREES  so before we get anyting it will need to moisten up...it ain't goin'a appen' dust chil out chfs322 ya gettin' on my nervers. . take a chill pill go outside and run around da hood wit no coat on fo 40 minutes.

*****************

Chances are less the farther north you travel on Monday.  I think the best moisture is southeast of KC, along with the greater precip. totals.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 1:57 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

Good, let the southerners have the ice. Jeremy, the Winter Storm watch says signifigant snow and sleet accumulation is likley and not ice. Do you think the storm will be an ice maker or a snow maker?

***************

As I've been mentioning today the threat of freezing rain is trending farther southeast.  I think some sleet and fine snow will occur in most areas.  Temps look too cold and the 850 freezing line tries to get to about KC and that's it.

I can't stress enough how light the precip. totals look.  I'll update the blog hopefully after 4pm.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 2:14 PM
 

chfs327 said:

After this storm hits. There will be another big one the 14-15th. As of looking right now some parts of the area could get 1 foot or more of snow again
February 10, 2008 2:17 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

chfs327, where do you see more then 1 foot of snow? I sure dont see it on the models.

*************

Same place he saw the ice storm:)

February 10, 2008 2:26 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I never thought tomorrow's storm was going to be major for the metro KC area.  It will be slick on the streets.  It just takes a thin coat to make streets slick.

StormWyndd,
That was a scary thing to happen!  I vaguely remember that storm.  I was probably 8 or 9 at the time.  I am like you will take snow over ice anytime.

Kristi

**************

We didn't think it would be major either...that's why I was stressing the precip. totals in yesterday's blog.  I think too many people post ice storm, ice storm on the blog and then people take that as the weather team's forecast.  Not the case.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 2:32 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

Here is an afternoon thought:
KCI should see above normal snowfall this season as long as we have a few more snow events. During the past 10 years KCI has hardly had any seasons that were normal or better in terms of snowfall.

**************

I would be shocked if the airport doesn't end up above average this winter.  Not very far to go. 

Enjoying the cold OP?

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 2:48 PM
 

Alden said:

Will there be a new blog today?

*************

Yes...hopefully within the next hour!

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 3:03 PM
 

JPnKC said:

Hello Jeremy -

Thanks for the great blogs Jeremy....kinda board today- no Football- not warm enough to do much outside. I would like to go ahead and put in my order for warmer temps!!

Hi BILL- great comments as always and I enjoyed your blog the other day..

Jeremy,

What is the duration of this event that will be affecting us tomorrow? Looks light around here from what I saw on your show this morning.

Any new data or thoughts on the Valentines day storm?? Looks interesting...


See you this evening,


JP


February 10, 2008 3:04 PM
 

marlina10 said:

After this coming week, does it look like we will be going back into the pattern of calm weather, or will there still be more storms to come?
February 10, 2008 3:31 PM
 

LRCfan said:

winter wx advisory includes most of the metro for a light glaze of ice possible be careful tomorrow morning.
February 10, 2008 3:31 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

Jeremy,
Yes, I am enjoying the cold air! It is much better than 90+ temps with high humidity!!!
CentralOP
February 10, 2008 3:33 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

The cold air was much more intense in the Midwest compared with the Central Plains. Minnesota and Wisconsin saw windchill readings between -30F to -50F last night! The UP of Michigan is getting a ton of snow again with the Keewenaw Peninsula reporting zero visibilities and WC values of -25F. Gaylord, MI has a current temp of -2F with near zero visiblity and lake effect squalls. Also, Madison, WI had a low this morning of -9F.  However, those same areas in Michigan had above normal temps in January as the arctic air was just to the west of the Great Lakes.

February 10, 2008 3:38 PM
 

Holmes524 said:

Just curious-How long before the ice storm shifts North and the metro area gets it again?  Luck has it that the fun stuff (SNOW) will go North and South of the Metro.  The Ice always heads straight for KC.  
February 10, 2008 3:39 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

"After this coming week, does it look like we will be going back into the pattern of calm weather, or will there still be more storms to come?"

Temps will be normal to below for the next 7 days. I see no signs of any big warming trends which is GREAT! The last thing we need is for Spring to start early like what happened last year. The strong April freeze occured after an extremely mild March.

***************

OP,

I think we are about 7-10 days or so away from exiting the active part of the cycle.  For me...I hope some milder weather returns which I expect should happen.

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 3:40 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

Holmes524,
If the temps are colder aloft we may get more sleet than freezing rain. Luckily the total precip amounts will be light. However, any glazing will cause big problems with temps below freezing.
February 10, 2008 3:41 PM
 

heavysnow said:

What are we expecting in KC Metro, with it being as cold as it is it wouldn't take much precip to produce some acc. snow.  

Are we expecting anything?

****************

Working on a new blog right now...

Jeremy

February 10, 2008 3:47 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I don't think that we will get any accumulating snow.  I think it is just going to be a mixture of precip (freezing drizzle/sleet/snow).  The farther you get away from the metro KC area (such as Clinton), the better chance of accumulating snow/slleet (an inch or greater), according to NWS.

Kristi
February 10, 2008 4:11 PM
 

ethalo said:

What time for new blog??
February 10, 2008 4:19 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Its gonna work its way northward.
February 10, 2008 4:42 PM
 

Scott said:

Folks, this is largely going to be a non event.  Nothing really shows anything signficant.  Yes, we might have some slick spots..but the QPF is very low for this event.

I would guess that we record less than .1 inches of precip...

This certainly is not a big ice/snow/sleet storm.
February 10, 2008 4:47 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Scott,
I agree 100% with you.

Kristi
February 10, 2008 4:49 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

"I think we are about 7-10 days or so away from exiting the active part of the cycle.  For me...I hope some milder weather returns which I expect should happen."

Well hopefully those highs will be in the 40s and 50s and not too much warmer. Last March we had a lot of days of 60F+ temps and that got Spring started too early.
Did you see those low temps and strong winds in the Midwest this morning?
KC was quite mild in comparison.
February 10, 2008 5:01 PM
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