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The LRC and a new long range forecast

Happy Valentines Day NBC Action Weather bloggers,

A big warm up is likely early Thursday before the last in a long series of Arctic fronts blasts in on Valentines Day.  It may jump briefly into the 50s on Thursday and then drop into the 20s by the evening rush hour with a few snow flurries.  

We must, suddenly, watch the weekend storm.  The Canadian model and GFS model came out with the storm moving into our viewing area Saturday and Saturday night.  And, I thought we may get a little break, maybe not.  More on this later today. 

It is time to go into what the pattern has been doing and what we can expect in the future. 

THE WEATHER PATTERN & THE LRC (February 13, 2008)

The weather pattern, that setup from October into early November, continues to cycle.  We have had a lot of discussion on the NBC Action Weather Blog with some very productive dialogue about the LRC, the length of the cycle, and other various parts of this fascinating weather pattern that keep repeating.  I would like to thank Scott, Notes in the Margin, Pvt Murphy, and many others for your insight, ideas, and constructive criticism.  This communication only helps us focus in on the weather pattern and we continue to learn more.  I am convinced that the LRC is a major discovery in meteorology.  It is just my theory (you can read much more about it in previous blog entries, look on January 2nd), and I will continue to share it with you and use it as it has provided our weather team with a huge forecasting advantage.  The LRC helps snow removal companies to decide whether they need to stock up on salt.  It helps in long range forecasting for the grain and energy commodity futures.  And, it helps our weather team as it is just another tool we use to bring Kansas City the most accurate forecast.

We noticed that the weather pattern was repeating in early December.  This is about the time we can see the cycle every year, but it takes until around January 1st before we gain confidence.  Remember, every year is unique, and there can be no denying this again.  Just look at what has been happening.  Madison, Wisconsin is up to nearly 80 inches of snow already.  A few weeks ago, our first guess on the cycle length was 54 days, and although this was a guess based on how we saw the weather pattern repeating, we are now convinced that it is closer to 50 days.  Some aspects of the pattern seem to have repeated every 46 to 49 days, while other storm systems, troughs, and ridges have returned closer to the original 54 day idea, but not longer than this cycle length.  So, when you see our long range forecast it is going to be using this 50 day cycle length.

Before we get to the forecast, let's look at this year's LRC and weather pattern.  We believe the weather pattern is cycling every 50 days or so, give or take a few days.  It isn't exact.  If it was, then there would be no discussion, no debate, and the fun would be taken out of weather forecasting.  But, it is close, amazingly close!  The bigger features will often return throughout the pattern.  "Long term" longwave troughs and ridges become established and the weather pattern will return to these positions right on schedule through the cycle.  One "long term" longwave trough is likely located between central Missouri and Chicago, IL.  When the flow is deamplified the trough is disguised eastward a bit (as you can see below). But, when it is amplified the trough sharpens up into it's real position extending from western Lake Superior to just west of St. Louis, MO.  It is this strong feature that is the biggest reason why there have been near record snowfalls over Wisconsin, located just east of the trough position.

The above map is the mean 500 mb flow when the pattern is more deamplified. There is one "long term" longwave trough a bit east of its more amplified position, and in this lower amplified part of the pattern there is another weaker "long term" longwave trough west and southwest of Kansas City. This allows for some storm systems to move through the west coast and then deepen into the plains and this has allowed for some of our spring like severe weather set ups during these winter months. And, this has provided our local region with some wet storm systems this season. 

This next map below, shows what happens to the pattern when it amplifies. Remember this is where I believe the "long term" longwave troughs are located.  Storm systems will intensify as they move into the trough position and then weaken as they move out of it.  In this more amplified part of the cycle, which has happened a lot this season, the southern storm systems track farther south and just clip our viewing area.

So, I have established where we believe the "long term" longwave troughs are located.  But, other features will form in places that the pattern doesn't support very well.  A perfect example is on the map below.  Twice this season the flow super amplified and a big "cold generating" ridge formed across the eastern Pacific poking all the way up into the North Pole.  This happened on November 30th.  We then used the LRC to forecast this part of the pattern returning in mid to late January and weeks ahead of time only NBC Action News forecasted the cold outbreak that lasted around 10 days.  Other forecasts had called for a warm January into February.  This year we took a different approach at an attempt to show you that it would not just be a coincidence.  In the blog (January 2nd), and on the air, we made a long range forecast for the next 50 days and clearly showed what the pattern would look like later in January.  The pattern developed almost exactly as we had forecast. 

Below, is the pattern that formed twice already this season. But, this huge ridge is not in a mean "long term" longwave ridge position.  So, this is why it breaks down so fast.  If the amplified pattern would just last a little bit longer then the Arctic air masses that formed would have become even colder with much stronger surface high pressure.

The map below is what happens to the pattern just days after that big ridge forms.  So, once that big ridge forms, amazingly it will break down and strong storm systems will then move across the nation.  Kansas City will experience the series of storm systems that has now happened 3 times (October, December, and late January and early February).

These next two maps show the pattern from November 30, 2007 and January 20, 2008.  This is 50 days apart.  So, expect this to return around March 10th.  It will not be a coincidence.

So, now how can we use this knowledge to make a long range forecast.  We believe that we are in around a 50 day cycle.  It could be 51, 54, or even 46 days in between some of our significant features.  The big features will be returning and very close to right on their scheduled dates.  And, remember this pattern will continue through the summer.  And, the exact same weather conditions will not repeat in the exact same spots as before.  We can still look forward and make an accurate prediction of when storm systems are most likely going to occur.  And, not just any storm, but the ones unique to this season.  They will look the same as previous storm systems, they will intensify and weaken similarly to what happened the last few times through the cycles, and we will be able to use this information as the storm systems approach.  The computer models will make errors and we will be able to tell if they have the right or wrong solutions. 

LONG RANGE FORECAST  February 15th - March 31st

Kansas City averages around 5.5" of snow between now and early April.  With the pattern we are in right now I think there will be well above the average number of chances for snow, some wet storm systems, likely our first severe thunderstorms (unless it stays cold), another cold outbreak, more hard freezes, and it is just going to be a bit on the wild side as winter battles spring and winter will win out a few more times before spring takes over.  It is very likely going to be a wild ride!

One last thing before the forecast.  We had a series of storm systems as the pattern was born in October, then they repeated in December, and again in late January as we had predicted.  In October the series of storm systems were spread out over 14 days from October 13th - October 26th.  In December the series spanned 15 days from December 1st through December 15th.  And, it was a a 13 day spread from January 25th through February 6th.  We expect this series of storm systems to repeat during the second half of March.  Between now and then there should be no lack of storm systems as the pattern across Canada could get blocked up. We must watch Canada closely.  If a block forms, then we will have some major winter storms.

The Forecast:

February 15-22:

This is just the next 8 days, so it is already on our 7 day.  We expect the Pacific flow to break through the west coast, but it could be quite active if the jet stream stays south of us.  The Arctic air will retreat early next week.  We expect one, perhaps a second storm system around the 21st, right now the first one may just miss us to the south, but it could suddenly turn north as the flow amplifies around the 16th.  The pattern stays active with the warm ups still in question. 

February 23-March 4:

Two storm systems, one of which will likely produce severe thunderstorms near or just south of our region, and it should be a rather wet storm.  The Arctic air may be lurking near by, and there may still be a strong winter component to these storm systems.

March 5-13:

Cold air again builds in Canada.  One significant storm with two other fast moving systems will affect Kansas City.  Arctic air will threaten a move south.

March 14-31st:

The series of four storm systems returns during the second half of March.  Arctic air will likely make a surge south into Texas.  There will be reinforcing shots of very cold air and one of the four storms will be very wet.  There will likely be a blizzard and massive winter storm very close to us between March 21st and March 28th

 

That last statement is pretty strong.  It is sort of our signature storm system and a test of a very long range forecast and the LRC!

We expect some very hard freezes in late March.  Looking ahead to April I think that our average last freeze date of around April 9th may be about right.  There will be a threat of a light late freeze towards the end of April as the cold part of the pattern returns again, but by this time we may just avoid the killing freeze we had last year.

I hope you have enjoyed reading this today.  We will spend some time getting to all of your questions during the morning on Thursday.  A strong front will be approaching.  Watch NBC Action News for details.   And, Friday night at 10 PM I will be talking about the new CASA radar system.

And, if that storm system forming over the southwest takes a more northward trend on the models, then we will update the blog.  As I stated near the beginning, the trend for the storm to move farther north has started.

Gary

Published Wednesday, February 13, 2008 4:13 PM by glezak

Comments

 

chfs327 said:

How Much Snow will there be till the end of this cycle and will there be an Icestorm here in KC
February 13, 2008 6:21 PM
 

chfs327 said:

hopefully alot since this is the start of the grand finally of winter.

February 13, 2008 7:01 PM
 

beckysma said:

i really enjoyed this entry, thank you!
February 13, 2008 7:01 PM
 

momof3 said:

Very interesting!  I can't wait to see the forecast.  I am hoping for some really good thunderstorms and maybe one big snowstorm.  I am really thankfull that we have a great team like you guys to help us be prepared!  Thanks again!!!

------------

Your welcome, we are finally getting ready to post the forecast.

Gary

February 13, 2008 7:07 PM
 

RickMckc said:

I don't know enough meterology to argue for or against your theory, but I've got to say that I am impressed not only at your inquisitiveness in all of this, but also your willingness to put it out there for feedback. Very cool.
February 13, 2008 7:08 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

Man almighty....now that is a blog entry. Awesome job guys!! I love the comparison maps....and the flow charts (ridge charts) you did. I bet that took more than just today to do. It is really cool to see everything come together so well to support the LRC. Looking forward to spring and what it has to offer. Hang on people it is gonna be wild ride.
Monica
Pleasanton, KS

----------------

Monica,

Thanks!  Let's see how March winds up.  I will be shocked if you don't get some snow.  What are you up to?  Around 4 or 5 inches?

Gary

February 13, 2008 7:18 PM
 

Matt P said:

In the northeast, major nor'easters are given a name, kind of like with hurricanes.  I think if we have a major ice storm, we'll have to name it "Chiefs327".
February 13, 2008 7:42 PM
 

JPnKC said:

Nice Blog Gary..

Looking forward to your show this evening.

JP
February 13, 2008 7:53 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

   Great Job!!!!!!!!! Do you see ALOT more snow chance's left, I hope no Ice Storm

-------------------

There will be more chances.  An ice storm is still possible, we will just have to see if more Arctic air comes down.

Gary

February 13, 2008 7:55 PM
 

Scott said:

Awaiting the rest before my thoughts.  Nice work. I am not sure I fully agree, but probably am agreeing more than expected.  The proof is in the pudding, which is the forecast..

And I will wait for that before fully expanding.

------------

Scott,

The pressure is on!

Gary

February 13, 2008 7:56 PM
 

sertorius said:

Gary:

Good Evening to you sir!! Really under the time warp tonight but wanted to say:

1. Fantastic Blog entry-very well written with some excellent maps!!! To me, it really spells everything out very clearly!!! A great presentation!!! The time it had to take to put this together....

2. More importantly: thanks so much for taking the time to present such a great piece on the Blog-just outstanding!!! This, as always, shows your and the teams passion not only for the weather but to also help teach others about the weather!!! Major kudos to all of you!!

You, Jeremy, Brett, and Jeff are TIGHT!!!!

Have a great night-unfortunately, that little thing called a job is getting in the way of my winter weather/weather obsession!!! LOL

Bill in Lawrence

------------

Thanks Bill,

And, now we put the forecast out there! 

Gary

February 13, 2008 8:00 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

We are all lucky to have the best weather team ever, I don't think there is anthor station out there ( in the world) that has the passion as this team does, how many would take the time to expain this much for us, look at how many post all these entry's have ton's,If they see a storm they are first to tell us, people are catching on to the most accurate out there............. Peroid,   Thanks: NBC ACTION WEATHER PLUS TEAM
February 13, 2008 8:02 PM
 

chiefsfan said:

 Hello Gary, I forgot to mention,  the 30% tomorrow evening. Is that 30% chance of them flurries, or is that 30% chance of a light snow, sorry

--------------

Just flurries, and we will likely take this out.  Just a few flakes will be flying through the air.

Gary

February 13, 2008 8:06 PM
 

sportsfreaked said:

Gary>>>Thanks for the time and energy you put into this entry. You and the team made it easy to understand for us newbies. I can't wait for Scott, and Notes and the other more advanced to throw their stuff out there for us to nibble on.
MATTP>>>> That is funny with the ice name I swear chfs327 invested in a whole house generator and wants to see if it works when the power goes out........LOL
Gary a BIG THANKS again for the entry we really appreciate your efforts and passion!!!!!!!

-----------

Your welcome!  It did take a very long time to put this together.  Thank goodness we had a calm weather day.

Gary

February 13, 2008 8:15 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Great blog! :)  I am waiting for the 45-day forecast to come out at 10 PM. :)

Kristi
February 13, 2008 8:15 PM
 

pvt_murphy said:

good blog...

i will be interested to hear your input about the couple different cycle lengths you mentioned, as i find it odd that the pattern seemed to follow different lengths a different points.
February 13, 2008 8:27 PM
 

Matt P said:

Gary, I've noticed with this year's LRC we've had some days where we've had a significant drop in temperature one day only to go back up the next.  Days like that could produce some pretty severe weather when it warms up.  Do you see this trend leading to some severe outbreaks this spring?  Thanks for the great blog!

----------------

These big temperature swings will be a symptom that strong storm systems are moving by.  This one tonight would likely be producing significant severe weather if there were moisture available. This moisture supply will be there in later cycles.

Gary

February 13, 2008 8:30 PM
 

Alden said:

Fantastic Blog! That's all I can say. :)
February 13, 2008 8:38 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Matt P Said:
In the northeast, major nor'easters are given a name, kind of like with hurricanes.  I think if we have a major ice storm, we'll have to name it "Chiefs327".

If I had My own Ice storm named after me I would like it. Lol.
I do have a Brand new generator so I want it to become and Ice Storm

If an Ice Storm Happens in March around the 21st then I will be Happy. But We will see.

Anyway I think the storm will come together and shift our way instead of not moving out of the 4 corners.
February 13, 2008 8:40 PM
 

kw_jw174 said:

Hey Gary, if you can keep that 60 (or higher) for the 21st of February, it will be the best birthday present I get this year.

Keri
February 13, 2008 9:03 PM
 

Brent said:

I want the massive winter storm to hit Harrisonville!!!

--------------

Brent,

It will probably miss you by 1 mile.  LOL  Let's hope not!

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:08 PM
 

Brent said:

Great blog Gary!!
February 13, 2008 9:11 PM
 

sedmo said:

I just read the 45 day forcast.  Very well put together and easy to understand.  I have to say it doesn't seem too bad.  I am a bit concerned the with possible blizzard but I will take what comes.   Thanks for taking the time to go into detail for us.   I do have a question about tomorrow nights possible snow...you said it was tracking further south, does that mean Sedalia is going to get hammered or is it futher south than Sedalia?  I am hoping it tracks further south.  Thanks,   Sara

--------------

Sara,

Right now it appears to be way south of us.  Let's keep tracking it.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:13 PM
 

mamaof3girls said:

WOW...you all really put yourself out their on this one. I can not wait to see if this all fits and works to fit the LRC. By the way...my snow total is 2.75 inches.......I wish it was 4-5 inches. We have had a LOT of dusting's this winter. But like I said last week...we were the winners in the snow amount last year. Good luck with the long term forecast, it will be exciting to watch.
Monica
Pleasanton, KS

-------------

Monica,

It is just amazing how you are at a near record low total.  Thanks.  I will add it to the list.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:14 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

im hoping for that massive winter storm. Im hoping a bad winter storm isnt going to happen when the BIG 12 tourney is here March 12-16.
February 13, 2008 9:19 PM
 

Mark M said:

Great blog. Great description. Great entry!
February 13, 2008 9:21 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I will definitely be watching the next 45 days with interest!  I love the addition of the 45-day forecast to the latest blog.

Kristi
February 13, 2008 9:23 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary,

You said that the Blizzard that will occur between March 21-28 is the "signature storm" of your cycle...which dates does that correspond with in the past (the last couple of times that "signature storm" showed up)?

When you say "Blizzard", is it safe to assume you're putting this in a category beyond any of the winter storms we've had so far this season, as none of them have had the mix of cold, strong wind, and heavy snow that is the general criteria for a "blizzard"?

--------------------

Notes,

This corresponds to either the "slide by" storm, or the "wet storm".  Both of these storm systems produced in our region in October and again in December, and then one missed, and one hit on this last cycle.  So, I picked that one week spread because both of those set ups will be likely repeating around that time.  Given the time of year, baroclinicity that will likely exist, and the potential moisture available, I just think it has to come together.  Maybe with both of the storms?  To have a blizzard in Kansas City would be very difficult, but one near by is likely, if I am right about this pattern.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:27 PM
 

chfs327 said:

I Want in this Massive storm to be either 1 of the following

#1 12-18 inches of snow
#2 A Major icestorm More Powerful than the one back in 2002
#3 A blizzard similar to the 1978 Blizzard
#4 A Tornado Outbreak like what Happened in the Southern US just a couple of weeks ago
February 13, 2008 9:27 PM
 

Daniel from Appleton City said:

ummm y the heck would u want those things chfs327...excuse me for my language but that is just dumb

-------------------

Daniel,

Ice storms are at the bottom of my list.  I will take snow anytime over any ice.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:33 PM
 

RodB said:

Since the majority of the winter storms have have taken tracks north of KC this year, is it oversimplifying to assume the trend will carry them even farther north?  It seems this would be the case as we transition from winter to spring.  If this is the true, we on the south side of the metro may be out of luck this winter.

-----------------

There is a very good chance that the storm systems will again produce in the same spots, but only a slight difference and you may get it on the south side.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:42 PM
 

simplykristi said:

No ice storms please.  I have seen enough in my lifetime already.

Kristi
February 13, 2008 9:44 PM
 

Eswar said:

Do you think that the "blizzard" as mentioned in the 45 day forecast will produce snow as far south as Olathe, or is Olathe done for snow this season.

Also, what type of weather do you think the significant storm between March 5-13 produce for our area?

Thanks, Eswar

------------------

Eswar,

We have to wait until that first week of spring before we can get that specific.  I do believe you will see at least two or three more chances of snow before April.

Gary

February 13, 2008 9:48 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Daniel.

I want those things because I like seeing Destruction and Chaos around me. Another Bad Winter event for us could Make or Break my Confidence for this year.

Im hoping the 12-16 inches of snow for KC or the Ice Storm
February 13, 2008 9:52 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

When you say a Blizzard nearby or in KC, is it safe to assume you mean a blizzard at least within the viewing area...roughly within the EAX CWA?  Within 50 miles of KC?  Or do you have a larger radius in mind?

You know me - I'm a stickler for something quantitative in order for verification to be possible!

-----------------

Notes,

Let's say a major snowstorm in the viewing area.  Will it be a blizzard?  We know how rare that is.  I just think it is possible.

Gary 

February 13, 2008 9:56 PM
 

LRCfan said:

latest models this weekend show the storm moving further north.
February 13, 2008 10:02 PM
 

twister11 said:

Love the new models.
February 13, 2008 10:15 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

I am hoping for several more snow events. It is only February 12. The warm air during the boring part of the cycle does not last for very long periods. I think March will be very active for us.
February 13, 2008 10:17 PM
 

CentralOP2 said:

Day 5-6 looks cold with 516mb thickness values for our area based on the MSLP 1000-500mb charts.  
The storm could track further north, but it looks to stay south for now...
February 13, 2008 10:20 PM
 

twister11 said:

good job at presenting the LRC Gary. I just wish they would atleast give you a couple more minutes, it goes by so fast. So, whats your take on this weekend storm?

-----------------

If it comes just a bit farther north than this latest GFS run then we will have a storm.  It trended north, but one run doesn't convince me of anything, however it would fit for it to lift up into Missouri.

And, if my boss just would understand that two more minutes would have been beneficial to the viewer.

Gary

February 13, 2008 10:27 PM
 

StormWyndd said:

Gary, very impressive!

 I have to admit, I'm looking forward to the warm part of the cycle, my heating bill definately needs a break.
Thank you for your hard work.
February 13, 2008 10:32 PM
 

TeacherInStJoe said:

I just want to say what a great job you guys are doing. My only comment is there better not be a massive winter storm on March 22. Thats the day I'm throwing a baby shower for my sister-in-law.  I'm putting my order in to mother nature now to hold off until the 23rd. I have to admit, I'm starting to get sick of all the snow. Never thought I would say that, but it has been a little too much this year. Someone else can have some.
:)

--------------

You may be sick of the snow, but some of our viewers to the south have had about 10 dustings.

Gary

February 13, 2008 10:32 PM
 

sedmo said:

I see where Easter is on March 23rd this year.  I have always heard that if it rains on Easter Sunday then it will rain for 7 sundays thereafter..so my question is:  If there is a blizzard on Easter Sunday will we have a blizzard for 7 sundays thereafter?  Just a thought! LOL
February 13, 2008 10:51 PM
 

snowblind said:

Awesome blog tonight!!!!!!!

This is the first time you really went for it with the LRC that I recall. You were detailed and much more specific to event dates. I think in 45 days you will be happy you did!!!  Good work TEAM!!

------------------

Thanks!  It is going to be another interesting ride.

Gary

February 13, 2008 10:59 PM
 

Sammieliberty said:

Like I always say about you all, you ARE the BEST!  You are the most PASSIONATE and you inspire passion in others to learn more!!
I'm sure to you it's not always convenient to be so passionate (loss of sleep, vacations, "down-time", etc :-), but you definitely inspire and you also keep our communities safer.
I "heart" you!
Happy Valentine's Day!
Sammie in Liberty

----------------

Sammie,

Thanks!  Happy Valentines Day to you too!  Yes, the lack of sleep can get me at times!

Gary

February 13, 2008 11:10 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

WOW ONCE AGAIN GREAT POST AND ANALYSIS, Wow my mouth is once again watering!!!  Knowing what Marches in the past have done and knowing this year's LRC...  The possibilities are endless.   this year has already been unreal and March may just try and put an exclamation point on that.    I would take the blizzard, again I DON'T want to see anybody get hurt, but at least with a blizzard the power would stay on so it would be a situation if people just stayed home it would be manageable and in March usually it warms up quicker so it wouldn't be like we would be snowed in for an eternity, with the ice storm, it is kind of like having a Category 1 Hurricane without the wind it does a lot of damage over a wide spread area AND tree limbs don't just melt away either and it is easier to get hurt!!   Now truthfully if we had another ice storm would there still be that 10 year old weather nut inside me going WOW this is "cool"? sure, extreme weather is something that I enjoy experiencing BUT  I don't like the harm that it does to other people.

--------------

There is no mention of any ice storm.  Hopefully we can avoid that!  Have a great night Nick.

Gary

February 13, 2008 11:32 PM
 

Michael said:

Very cool Gary!  Just moved back from Dallas in December, and the entire family missed your weather and the dogs!  It really makes sense when you put it in this format, how incredible that you are willing to take this much time for us to understand as well.  We are so glad to be home after 3 years, and you are very much a part of the reason.  Thanks for all you do, and for caring for all of us so much!

Michael Teegarden

--------------

Michael,

Welcome back!  I am glad it makes sense.  Now, let's see what happens.

Gary

February 14, 2008 12:03 AM
 

stormchaser said:

Gary great job with your research on the cycles of weather affecting our area.  I am such a weather geek that I have used and subscribed to other sources that used a similar formula for forecasting.  I have always believed in a cycle particularly in the winter months when the world jet seems to undergo more amplification and rapid shifts.  I have always looked at about 6 weeks, which is really close to what you are talking about, in terms of repeating the cycle.  I have a hard time getting a handle on the summer when it seems that everything slows down and locks in due to the positioning of the Bermuda High, and how the polar jet gets pushed to the north and seems to stay.  With little to any phasing from the subtropical.  I never seem to recognize the changes in early summer to early fall, thats when I can't find a pattern.  In middle to late fall, I look at an average 15 day period for re-curving typhoons to bring us wet periods around fall harvest time.  Just something I have picked up over living in Southeast Missouri and being a part time farmer most of my life.  Tell Brett Anthony I remember when he was at KFVS in Cape Girardeau, its good to see a familiar face, since we just moved to the KC area last August.  Great stuff here, I look forward to coming back and not being so wordy next time.

Lynn Pumphery

-----------------

Lynn,

Thank you so much for your kind words of wisdom this morning.  It is in the fall, from October 1st to November 10th that the weather pattern sets up each year.  And, then it begins cycling.  I am not sure what the cause of the cycle is, but we are working on finding the reasons.   Every year is unique. 

Have a great day!

Gary

February 14, 2008 12:25 AM
 

sertorius said:

Gary:

Good warmish morning to you sir!!! We are sure living by our name sake here this morning: those south winds are just a blowing!!! Not called Kansas for nothing LOL!!!

I know, I know, I am supposed to be buried in work and I am, but as always, my passenger side hobby kind of took the wheel of the car this morning!!  LOL

Some random musings of which most are probably so far out in left field that I am sitting in the fountains at Kauffman Stadium!!!

1.  First and foremost: again, awesome job with the Blog entry-an excellent body of work!!! Just fantastic!!! The 45 day forecast is all right there and I think you, Jeremy, Brett, and Jeff deserve major kudos for putting that out on a forum such as this-you went for it for sure and to me, that has to be respected big time!!!! Again, major kudos!!!! Oh and by the way, I think it will be spot on!!! To me, the LRC will not be denied nor will your guys ability to use it!!!!



                                                  Current Weather

1. Looking at the 11Z Surface charts, the front has cleared Colby, Kansas and is on the move!!! Yes, I will enjoy following this today as like Kansas City’s own Shooting Star said: this will be your last chance to follow an arctic front for a while…doesn’t take much to amuse me!!!! LOL


2.  Water Vapor Imagery: last night was kind of interesting to watch-you could see the cold air diving down from Canada but could also see the energy trying to make the turn in Nevada last night-pretty cool!! This morning on the water vapor imagery it appears to me that the low has for sure formed but it is about 100-200 miles North East of where the 0z and 6z GFS forecasted it to be at this time. It also looks like it is still trying to make the turn or maybe a piece has broken off. Of course, maybe I am just like the Talking Heads this morning: you may find yourself living in a shot gun shell-that isn’t my energy coming east-as the days go by….


3.  The models: I think (again, think optimum word here) that the 06Z GFS initialized the energy about 100 miles NE of where the 0z forecasted it to be at midnight and I think right now it is about 100 miles NE of where the 06Z GFS has forecasted it to be. Am I making this up??? As the days go by…..


4.  Models 2: Both Euro and GFS still have this vacationing in Arizona for 48 hours before it decides it needs to go back to work.. However, the way it comes out is interesting-if the Euro keeps up it’s trends, this thing may track from Arizona to Manitoba-each run it seems to move further North to where on the 0Z today the Euro has that energy tracking almost right over Columbia. The GFS is much further South.


5. For sure, it will be what it will be, but this is going to be interesting tracking this for the next 48 hours beginning with the cold front barreling down as we speak-maybe we get a surprise this weekend????


Ok, gone off the deep end for the second time in 2 days-for sure, these are just the observations of a hobbyist and should not be taken as anything-I mean I didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!!! I do hope they make some amount of sense!!!! Or, as back to my song: hey, that’s not my beautiful house, how did I get here-as the days go by….


Have a great day Gary and also to you Jeremy, Brett, and Jeff!!! I really think all of you should take great pride not only in the blog entry last night and the forecast which really goes without saying, but also in the type of weather forum you have created here-just outstanding beyond words!!!!

I’ll say it again: Gary, Jeremy, Brett, and Jeff: you guys are TIGHT!!!!

Bill in Lawrence

--------------------

Bill,

Thanks for your musings this morning.  If the storm, IF it comes out slightly farther north than the latest models are showing, then it is a major winter storm here.  The phasing of the northern branch and southern branch would happen right near us.  This has happened one other time, amazingly on the December 22nd-23rd storm.  So, this would fit the weather pattern, but it could also phase ever so close to our southeast. 

We will see how this looks on the next few runs.

Gary

February 14, 2008 5:48 AM
 

KSuds said:

I checked out Saturday night and all I could see was a heavy snow band in our viewing area on the NAM? The GFS looked dead.  Of course it is morning now.  Stuff changes.  Can't wait to here your update for Sat. night.  
Great 45 day forecast by the way.  My 7 year old daughter even seems to grasp it pretty well due to your "excellent explanations!"  Man say that 5 times fast.  

Thanx for your hard work, weather team!!!

------------

Your welcome!  Yes, the NAM, GFS, and Canadian models all have a snowstorm trying to form in our viewing area this weekend.  It is another tricky one.

Gary

February 14, 2008 5:57 AM
 

Bryan said:

Excellent job on the blog Gary, I was waiting patiently for your long range forecast and am looking forward to most of it occuring. Like I have said before, you have me hooked on the "LRC". It's currently 38.6 here in KCK with a nice S wind at 13 MPH. Looks like a nice day ahead before the colder air returns!

Bryan

--------------

Bryan,

Thanks!  Have a great day, it's a windy one this morning.

Gary

February 14, 2008 6:03 AM
 

W0XDL said:

Wow!  I have not got to read the entire blog entry but what I did read was incredible.  Gary, you should offer the chance to send in $100 for a course credit for each of us that reads through this one....super job!!!

DL

----------------------

DL,

I don't know if I have even made it through it yet.  LOL

Gary

February 14, 2008 7:10 AM
 

kane1970 said:

Gary great blog!!!!!!!! Very to the point. I emailed it to some co-workers. I asked them to save it. So we will see what happens. I have a question about saturdays storm possibility. I have looked a NOAA web site at the nam and the GFS. I think it was the 72 hour that the storm was just to our south.  I am looking at the 4-panel charts. The 500mb vort shows a X over kansas city. what does that mean? I am not trying to do things my self I just like to look and make a guess and then see what you have to say. (it shows I'm a real moron.) lol. I am also not sure if these two storms converge together will the other storm pull it to our south? Which one is stronger? Or does that matter?

Thanks!

-------------

Let's see if the phasing of the two streams happens near by and then we can go into all of the details.  The X is the center of maximum vorticity, or an upper level storm system.  But, there are other X's.  The main X with that southwest system is still forecast to track south of us, but the trend if for it to kick out harder north.  More on these things later.

Have a fantastic day!

Gary

February 14, 2008 7:23 AM
 

homerun said:

Good morning Gary---Thanks for laying out the LRC with the maps and other information.  It of course is very clear to me and several Topekans are buying into it.  They are amazed at the accuracy of the forecast that are able to place the weather systems in the area during the cycles.  I am a huge weather enthusiast and was a teacher for several years (12) and taught science including very basic meterology.  I have used the LRC and your forecasts the last couple of years to help with my gardening.  Since it looks as if winter and freezes are on the horizon I will have to be cautious in planting this spring.  I will continue to send in precip reports as I compile them for you.  Thanks for your work, Michael/Berryton/Topeka

-------------------

Michael,

We appreciate all of your entries and information!  Let's see how the next 45 days play out.

Gary

February 14, 2008 7:41 AM
 

dryslot said:

Gary can you help me out.I coach a boys 7th grade soccer team and am wanting to have practice tonight from 5-6 .What  time (if its even possible to tell) do you think the cold front will come thru today? If its going to be in the 30/20's by 5 then I will cancel it...Thanks Gary and look Fw to  your reply. You are a great weatherman in my pocket.

--------------------

I am a bit scared of your last comment, but we can help with your the forecast.  By 5 PM we think it will have dropped to around 32 degrees or so, and falling with wind chills in the teens.

Gary

February 14, 2008 7:48 AM
 

Bob in OP said:

Gary,

Nice work on the long range forecast. Well done...

Bob

---------------

Thanks Bob!

Gary

February 14, 2008 7:54 AM
 

sedsinkc said:

Gary, that's quite a forecast.  Would you consider a blizzard across the high plains from western Kansas to the Dakotas to be nearby?  It seems like the high plains get at least one blizzard every year during March, it will be interesting to see if the storm you forecast to be nearby between March 21 and 28 turns out to be a high plains blizzard.  Climatologically, March 21-28 seems just a tad late for a blizzard to hit KC proper.  Regardless, it should be an interesting February-March.

---------------------

There is never a time that a blizzard fits into Kansas City climatology.  But, I just think with this pattern that there will be quite a surface cyclone with at least one of those storm systems during March.  And, with the way we have seen a few of  these storm systems this season I think that in the winter quadrant of these storms a blizzard is possible. 

Gary

February 14, 2008 8:08 AM
 

NateB said:

Not liking the 45 day forecast.  Too much talk of Artic air.  I'm ready for spring.  I was prepared for the late-March snow (you've been talking about that all winter), but I was hoping for a few warm-ups in the forecast.  

-----------

There was one 10 day warmer stretch the last time through the cycle and we are going into this part of the pattern next week. But, it is somewhat suspect with a ridge trying to form over Canada.

Gary

February 14, 2008 8:18 AM
 

marlina10 said:

Since you said the Artic air will be retreating next week, do you think the storm system coming around Feb. 21 will be mostly rain? I am leaving for Mexico on the 21st and will curse the weather gods if a winter storm stops us from flying out!

---------------

It most likely would be rain.  We will know this answer very soon.

Gary

February 14, 2008 8:30 AM
 

bgmike said:

Wow!  Great blog Gary.  Either right or wrong with you thoughts, you have earned my respect as a forecaster.  I love it when you make a stand and you have done so quite dramatically for a second time now.  Will it verify?  Only time will tell.  Out of the whole blog, you know the one thing that most people will be judging you on?  Yep, the blizzard near by late March.  Way to make a stand and good luck with that.  Thanks for the insight into the LRC and I hope you competition doesn't start stealing your secrets.  

Later,
Mike in Ottawa

--------------------

Mike,

Thanks!  Yeah, that March statement is strong, but it is also 40 days away.  Let's see what happens.

Gary

February 14, 2008 8:41 AM
 

WeatherCop2112 said:

 
"NotesInTheMargin said:
When you say a Blizzard nearby or in KC, is it safe to assume you mean a blizzard at least within the viewing area...roughly within the EAX CWA?  Within 50 miles of KC?  
You know me - I'm a stickler for something quantitative in order for verification to be possible!
-----------------
Notes,
Let's say a major snowstorm in the viewing area.  Will it be a blizzard?  We know how rare that is.  I just think it is possible.
Gary "


This is exactly the question I had concerning the long-range forecast and my problem with the LRC in general. Gary says above there "will likely" be a blizzard in his forecast and then here he says he just thinks "it's possible." Well, I guess everything that's been forecast is possible.

It's also "possible" that Koko the Chimp might indicate we're in for 60 degree daytime highs "nearby" from March 21-March 28. I'm not sure Koko's prediction would be any less reliable than Gary's.

However, as always, I give Gary props for laying it out there and exposing himself to some criticism instead of telling me to wear a bike helmet during bad weather.

Keep up the good work, Gary!

-------------------------

Well, yes and no.  I say it is "possible" at any one point, but it is "likely" in the region.

Gary

February 14, 2008 8:46 AM
 

Tim in West Shawnee said:

Great job Gary (and team).  If (when) the major storm comes thru towards the end of March, how can anyone deny the LRC?

Since you have been tracking it, what has been the shortest and longest periods?  Anything less than 30 days or more than 75 days?

Take care guys,
Tim
February 14, 2008 8:47 AM
 

dryslot said:

Gary thank you very much. Its a tough call to cancel or not. I don't want to get any kids sick...Very funny stuff you wrote... People do not believe me when I tell them I have a direct link to Gary L. Thanks for the blog it is a fantastic tool for people whos lives depend on the weather.
February 14, 2008 8:48 AM
 

KSuds said:

Hey Weathercop 2112, Gary says a blizzard is likely near by not in Kansas City.  The blizzard in Kansas City is possible, but not likely.  Likely here would be a major snow storm with a blizzard up in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
February 14, 2008 8:56 AM
 

stjoeattorney said:

Thought could there be a cycle within the cycle;  the polar air at 50 days with other events moving at about 54?  As fot this weekend it bears watching.  It is 34 and feels warm but we will be dropping in a few hours.  We still have 3-4 inches of snow cover or so on the ground.

I felt that something like this occured since I was a kid.  Ted

-------------------

Ted,

Good idea, but I just doubt it.  The entire pattern is connected.  It will vary a bit, as it isn't perfect, but we can show how it is cycling, and close to 50 days on the average.

Gary

February 14, 2008 9:00 AM
 

MikeL said:

WOW! The 12Z NAM really cranks out the precip for the area over the weekend!  Looks like a lot of it could be rain then turning to snow!  If the cold air can get here quicker there could be tons of snow!  Mike
February 14, 2008 9:04 AM
 

WeatherCop2112 said:

KSuds, I believe his exact words were "There will likely be a blizzard and massive winter storm very close to us between March 21st and March 28th." Doesn't say it won't be in KC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Gary and the LRC, I just find it to be maddeningly vague. Man has been trying to forecast the weather for thousands of years. We're better at it but I'm pretty positive nobody will ever be able to tell you what's going to happen 45 days from now. Heck, as good as Gary is he didn't even hit his 3 degree forecast yesterday (which is actually a 7 degree differential, but I digress).
February 14, 2008 9:06 AM
 

dougbce said:

It's kind of scary but to me it looks like the GFS and NAM are pretty similar for once.  Looks like good chance Sunday into Monday, but it also looks like the 540 line is well north of us.  Which if I've been educated here enough I would conclude that is all rain, with a shot at freezing rain or sleet if the temps are lower at the surface.
February 14, 2008 9:20 AM
 

Mike4252 said:

Great information Gary. I just got my house wired with a back-up generator and I think I might get the chance to put it to use if that major March storm turns into a monster.
I'm looking forward to seeing your LRC be confirmed over the coming weeks. If you continue to "nail" it when will NOAA come around....or have they already???
Mike in Drexel

-------------------

Mike,

Thanks, I know you want some snow in Drexel.  We will have to see if the storm systems keep taking the same tracks as earlier this season.

Gary

February 14, 2008 9:20 AM
 

sedsinkc said:

Yeah Gary, KC never really gets true blizzards, much to the chagrin of all the snow lovers who frequent your blog.  But climatologically, isn't a favored storm track by late March one that features intense surface cyclones forming in the area of the TX/OK panhandles, NE New Mexico, W Kansas, or E Colorado which then move NE towards Minnesota or the western Great Lakes, with blizzard conditions on the backside of the surface system accompanying the upper low from Colorado- W Kansas up to the Dakotas and Minnesota?  It is unusual for KC to have a BIG snow (emphasis on BIG) in late March, because 6"+ snows usually fall pretty far to the W and NW of us by that time of year, don't they?  (Actually, it's unusual for KC to have a big snow at any time, lol).  Not to say it won't be different this year, because anything is possible (just ask Koko).  BUT, if a big snowstorm occurs within the KSHB viewing area between March 21 and 28, who can doubt the authenticity of the LRC?  Also, what is the definition of a massive winter storm?  Is it one that produces over 6 inches of snow?  Over 10 inches of snow?  Over 1" of ice?  Sorry for all the questions, it's the scientist in me, lol!!  I'm looking forward to experiencing the weather between March 21 and 28, your prediction has my curiosity piqued.

--------------------------

With this years weather pattern I think the favored areas will still be in it, but it should also hit our viewing area.  A massive winter storm, for our region, would imply one foot of snow produced somewhere near by.  So, let's see how this looks next month. We have many more possibilities before this time frame.

Gary

February 14, 2008 9:21 AM
 

Fire Dog said:

UPDATE, has anyone been looking at the LATEST GFS / NAM? Well, if not you should.  GFS is bringing the storm more north, but still just a little to south, HOWEVER THE NAM IS BLASTING US FROM KC SOUTH!
February 14, 2008 9:22 AM
 

Fire Dog said:

I know right now it looks to be all rain, but its still four days away so ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN.
February 14, 2008 9:27 AM
 

sedsinkc said:

Gotta get some sleep, working nights is killer.  Signing off.
February 14, 2008 9:34 AM
 

ryanfromolathe said:

Great entry - it's refreshing to see a forecast that dares to be specific.  I am officially ready for the winter weather to go away, though - bring on the spring!
February 14, 2008 9:55 AM
 

heavysnow said:

Well, the GFS has the heaviest part of the storm just south of KC in the newest run and I don't buy the temps......

NAM drills us
February 14, 2008 10:01 AM
 

WeatherFreak said:

Does anyone have any links to maps that show snowfall totals for the midwest for the entire winter??  I can find storm totals all over the place, but can't find one that shows a total since November.  Thanks in advance for your help!!
February 14, 2008 10:03 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Ok, I've been away for a few days and just ran the models for today.  I see Gary has a 20% chance of precip on Sat-Sun, but looking at the NAM and GFS we could get an 1"+ of liquid equivalent.  Seems a little close to the event for the models to be this far off and that they're both similar.

---------------

We will likely pump our precipitation chance way up for the weekend.  The trend continues.

Gary

February 14, 2008 10:11 AM
 

kcroyals05 said:

Happy Valentines Day to the Weather team.

Just read the blog.  WOW, thanks for sharing this with us Gary.   The only thing that I'm concerned with is the end of March.   The wife and I are flying out to Southern California on the 22nd of Marc, and fly back into KC on the 31st.   Lets hope that the weather isn't too bad...

Bill

----------------------

Bill,

It is still 40 days away from that week, so let's just wait and see how this continues to cycle.

Gary

February 14, 2008 10:15 AM
 

RDub said:

I'd like to see some more specifics in the temperature forecast. Like, during each of the periods, will it be near normal, above or below? For the second half of March it seems like a clear below normal forecast, but the rest is filled with "still in question", "may be lurking" and other non-specific terms.

--------------------

Overall we are thinking it will end up below average during this entire stretch on temperatures, and precipitation will be above average.

Gary

February 14, 2008 10:20 AM
 

FairWeather007 said:

Great blog, Gary!

I just have to say that I hope you're wrong about one statement--the likelihood of a blizzard between March 21 & March 28!

Not only is Easter weekend in there, but my birthday, and I think it was a bit chilly for my birthday last year as well, and I'd like to have a much warmer birthday this time. Maybe if it threatens, I'll just have to hop on a plane to Phoenix or San Diego until the blizzard is over!

Other than that, I'm ready for the roller coaster ride--and definitely ready for our first real thunderstorms (where I can tease all my friends that they'd better not follow me home from work since I'll be storm chasin'!!!)
February 14, 2008 10:23 AM
 

weathermom said:

I see that you've upped the chance for this weekend to 50%....are we talking rain mostly or snow or too early to tell?  The temps. look too high for snow, so looks like I shouldn't get my hopes up?  Kathleen

--------------------

If the storm lifts a bit farther north than the latest models are showing then it could be a rain changing to snowstorm.  We will have a better handle on this rapidly changing situation.  I will blog about it later today.

Gary

February 14, 2008 10:30 AM
 

RDub said:

Thanks Gary...not what I wanted to hear really, but oh well, it will get warm eventually.
February 14, 2008 10:38 AM
 

mizzoufan03 said:

Gary,

great stuff as always. Looking now as if Saturday could get interesting round here.

Kind regards
February 14, 2008 10:44 AM
 

chfs327 said:

Hey. I want a link to the model. Ive looked all he ones for 72-84 hr and they all show way too far south down in Texas.
February 14, 2008 10:44 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Gary this storm seems weird to me, because it just came out of no where.  Obviously things can change this far out, but the amount of moisture just exploded in the latest model runs.  Does this possible storm even tie into an earlier storm system we've received according to the LRC?

---------------------

This so fits into the LRC it is ridiculous.  Amazing!  I don't know what else to say.  But, the 72 hour forecast on the Canadian, GFS, NAM all look exactly like the storm right before Christmas, and somewhat like a few others this season.  This is storm #7 that we wondered about in our last long range forecast in early January.  And, suddenly there it is.  The track will still decide what we get.  Just slightly farther north and we are into a big storm.  But slightly farther south and it will make us forecasters look bad. 

Gary

February 14, 2008 10:46 AM
 

chfs327 said:

This is the Ice storm im talking about.

*******************

Ok...I think everyone gets your message about an ice storm.  That's your forecast.

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 11:08 AM
 

chfs327 said:

So if its not gonna be rain and its not gonna be snow. then its gonna be ice correct.

***************
Could be a little bit of everything.  Certainly looking a lot wetter on today's runs.

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 11:13 AM
 

twister11 said:

..So hard to believe how the models can change so much in just 1 day.
February 14, 2008 11:29 AM
 

Brent said:

whats this about Ice now? what did I miss?

Its 54 in Harrisonville! it feels awesome!

I still want snow though......

**************

Brent,

Please keep chfs327 and our forecasts separated:)  chfs327 was mentioning another ice storm. 

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 11:32 AM
 

chfs327 said:

Brent. The Models have changed and we could see 1 inch of liquid percip. Is gonna hit harrisonville hard.

****************

It looks pretty wet on the recent runs.  Let's see if the trend continues this p.m.

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 11:35 AM
 

nastyweather said:

Come on Chfs327 don't get carried away with this Ice Storm hyperbole again.  This "storm" is 4 days away, and we all know the models can do strange things in that amount of time.
February 14, 2008 11:45 AM
 

chfs327 said:

Thats True Nasty. Seeing as the Models missed us on the last big storm just 2 hours before it hit us I have a feeling that this is just gonna be a southern Missouri event. Ohh well its better to dream then to just forget about it
February 14, 2008 11:56 AM
 

kellyann said:

Nasty, I agree...enough is enough!
February 14, 2008 12:00 PM
 

Brent said:

"Please keep chfs327 and our forecasts separated:)  "

Good idea Jeremy... ;)

but I can't help but wonder..
"Brent. The Models have changed and we could see 1 inch of liquid percip. Is gonna hit harrisonville hard.

****************

It looks pretty wet on the recent runs.  Let's see if the trend continues this p.m.

Jeremy"


what all this means...lol?
February 14, 2008 12:00 PM
 

kellyann said:

Brent, don't worry, I'm sure we will get just rain, maybe a nice amount! If we happen to get something on the tail end of this next storm, it won't amount to much. Enjoy the nice weather today!!
February 14, 2008 12:02 PM
 

kane1970 said:

ICE ICE BABY......................ICE ICE BABY.. TOO COLD, TOO COLD.

I don't want ice I just thought that would be funny.
GO Vanilla ice. lmfao!!!!!!!!
52* sunny and windy. 87th and I-35.
February 14, 2008 12:02 PM
 

nikieis said:

great last 2 blogs gary! i totaly see where the LRC fits in to the weather pattern.
February 14, 2008 12:04 PM
 

Brent said:

" chfs327 said:
I Want in this Massive storm to be either 1 of the following :
#2 A Major icestorm More Powerful than the one back in 2002 "

oh my gosh thats asking for a lot chfs....thats a scary amount of ice..lol

and don't wish for tornados....if you ever were a victim of one you would feel differently.

I would not mind  a few feet of snow though...lol most of our snow in 59/60 occured in march!

February 14, 2008 12:05 PM
 

RDub said:

Looks like either rain or snow, not ice.
February 14, 2008 12:07 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary said:  "This so fits into the LRC it is ridiculous.  Amazing!  I don't know what else to say.  But, the 72 hour forecast on the Canadian, GFS, NAM all look exactly like the storm right before Christmas, and somewhat like a few others this season.  This is storm #7 that we wondered about in our last long range forecast in early January. "

But yesterday or the day before, when I asked about the weekend storm, you said it lined up with the AFTER Christmas event - the 12/27 event - and that the pre-Christmas storm that gave us a White Christmas and dumped 8"+ from Topeka to St. Joe was the one that recently missed us.  

-------------------------

Notes,

This is almost identical to the December 22nd/23rd look as it phased together over Missouri.  Remember, it isn't perfect.  These storm systems are all tied into the "long term" longwave troughs and ridges.  As this energy, which is cycling, comes into this part of the pattern it will fall into place, into the "long term" longwave.  Look at the forecast for Saturday night into Sunday, and look at my amplified longwave trough from western Lake Superior to Missouri.  It is a perfect fit.  It is almost identical to the December 22nd/23rd trough that moved through.  It is not coincidence.  I don't know how else to convince you.

Gary

February 14, 2008 12:12 PM
 

WinterTracker said:

"kane1970 said:
ICE ICE BABY......................ICE ICE BABY.."
I prefer the Jim Carrey spoof. You know......"White White Baby.......He's a White White Baby". LOL
I hope it stays below 28 on Friday or else the snow I'm planning on making might be a little to wet.
February 14, 2008 12:15 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Jeremy.

Brent,

Please keep chfs327 and our forecasts separated:)  chfs327 was mentioning another ice storm.  

Jeremy.

I was wondering why im gonna be singled out but ohh well. I roled 2 dice and it landed 29. I 29 is gonna be where the snow Ice line is.

*************

Not trying to single you out, but in reality you are the only one posting the same statements over and over.  We love your enthusiasm for weather, but I think everyone gets your forecast of an ice storm after a couple of posts.  That's all.

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 12:25 PM
 

stjoeattorney said:

chfs357 kid yur gettin' on folks nerves. . . ice is bad you don't want it it cripples the ecomony, something at your age you do not care about, 12 inches of snow can do the same thing but its effects are not as long lasting. . . just cut it out or tone it down. . . it gets old to pop in here 4-6 times a day and every sixth entry is an icestorm commenth from you. . .

OH  and by the the way 1-29 runs generlly NNNW and ends in downtown KC so it can't be a dividing line for ice vs snow [read a map]. . . and learn.

*************

Okay...point taken. 

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 12:48 PM
 

Zazel said:

Sadly, in most every blog the comments have taken a childish turn or, at the very least, are filled with statements that are completely irrelevant and serve no purpose but to clutter up the blog making it difficult to find something intelligent or at least interesting.

------------

This is a good point, and we try to lay down our ground rules.  I think it is a decent balance right now.  And, remember, you don't have to read the comments.  At the same time, we will remind everyone from time to time that this isn't really a chat room, but it can work if we all keep it to our topics of discussion.

Gary

February 14, 2008 12:53 PM
 

outwest said:

Gary,

Great blog entry and thanks very much for the great information.

In our neck of the woods (northern Colorado front range) spring - March and April are usually the snowiest months of the year.  The storms that produce severe weather for your area often produce heavy snow on the back end here in eastern Colorado and Wyoming - if the air is cold enough. And at this elevation it generally is.  What I hearing from your forecast is that we'll have perhaps a few chances of these types of storms in March?  I'd be happy to see this as our last few springs have been very warm and dry...

BTW, I certainly don't wish for any tornadoes or ice storms for you (or anyone) all out of this - just some beneficial moisture and some exciting weather.

---------------

I am 100% with you.  I love a great thunderstorm, but please no large hail or tornadoes.

Gary

February 14, 2008 12:59 PM
 

twister11 said:

Are you guys going to update this afternoon or tonight about the storm?
Thanks.

-----------------

Yes, we will do an update once the 18z data comes in.  So, around 4:30 PM or so.

Gary

February 14, 2008 1:16 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I am really tired of the ice storm posts.  It adds nothing to the discussions.  I have no use for wishcasting.

For all you snow lovers,
You really need to head to Colorado. :)  There's a lot of snow in the mountains.  Someone is suppose to send me pics from Ridgway CO of the snowpack out there.

BTW, it is in the low 50s here.  It looks the front has moved thru St. Joseph and is getting ready to move thru the KC area.

Kristi

**************

Front is beginning to move in right now!  A huge change is on the way!

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 1:23 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I'm with Gary and outwest..  Love a great storm with lots of lightning and thunder but can do without the large hail and tornadoes.

Kristi
February 14, 2008 1:24 PM
 

JHAWK23 said:

NWS 1:00 Hazardous weather outlook

.DAYS TWO THROUGH SEVEN...FRIDAY THROUGH WEDNESDAY

A STRONG STORM SYSTEM WILL EMERGE OUT OF THE SOUTHWESTERN US THIS
WEEKEND AND TRACK ACROSS NORTHERN ARKANSAS AND SOUTHERN MISSOURI.
CONDITIONS ARE BECOMING MORE FAVORABLE BY SUNDAY FOR ACCUMULATING
SNOWFALL WITH THIS SYSTEM. UNCERTAINTY STILL EXISTS TO THE EXACT
TRACK OF THE STORM SYSTEM WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY DETERMINE THE AMOUNT
AND LOCATION OF THE HEAVIEST SNOW. INTERESTED PARTIES SHOULD CONTINUE
TO MONITOR THIS DEVELOPING SITUATION FOR FUTURE UPDATES AND THE
LATEST INFORMATION.

.SPOTTER INFORMATION STATEMENT...

SPOTTER ACTIVATION WILL NOT BE NEEDED THROUGH SATURDAY.

$$

DEROCHE




February 14, 2008 1:27 PM
 

kane1970 said:

Sorry I was just poking fun.
UP to 54* 87th and I-35

Is there going to be flash flooding potintial from the rain portion of the storm? The ground is very saturated, with the frost working its way out. Not to mention all of the other precip.

*************

The new solutions are pretty wet.  Let's see if the trend continues for another run or two before diving into the potential for a wet weekend.

Jeremy

February 14, 2008 1:30 PM
 

John Moon III _Weather Enthusiast_ said:

I just think that it is really cool that you have developed this theory, it is such a great tool.  I really like the fact that you are saying that there are going to be more chances for snow!!! Is there any particular reason why you are saying most of the possible winter storms are more than likely going to occur in march?  Is it just that all the conditions will be there during that particular time in march?  
February 14, 2008 1:31 PM
 

kane1970 said:

JHAWK....
Where did you find that?
February 14, 2008 1:34 PM
 

JHAWK23 said:

February 14, 2008 1:39 PM
 

Jaygirl said:

Thanks for the great blog Gary.  I'm curious if you received any snow totals for Lawrence?  Bill?  It sure seems that we have been lucky.
February 14, 2008 1:57 PM
 

bellgolf08 said:

Gary love the update for the next 50 days. You explain everything so well with your LRC. I am hoping you are right about the blizzard and severe weather. Keep up the great work.
February 14, 2008 2:00 PM
 

Sheree said:

Wow that was great - thank you.  I really hope we don't have a late killing frost again.  Last time I printed out your long range forecast to compare with the actual and it was very impressive.  Looking forward to doing it again.  Thanks for sticking your neck out there with your predictions.  Some of them were quite vague and you'd be right no matter what would happen, but some of them were very exact.  I appreciate the detailed predictions!
February 14, 2008 2:04 PM
 

Bob in OP said:

Gang,

The latest model runs that I have access to [NAM, GFS] are looking very interesting for Sunday and, "if" I am interpreting the model runs correctly, the models would "appear" to indicate primarily a rain event for most of the KC metro with the rain/snow line lying just north and west of the metro or; this year's more favored Topeka-St. Joseph corridor [not again]. Later, the rain/snow line would cross the metro in the deformation bands as the storm exits. Of course, at 72 hours out, these model runs could change significantly. A deeper low would likely "wrap in" colder air more quickly. I will be interested in seeing the latest model runs and hearing the the interpretations from the "weather team" and the more serious forecasters here. It could get interesting...

Bob
February 14, 2008 2:09 PM
 

Scott said:

Gary,

(Scott, I will answer one by one below, Gary)

Here goes nothing…lol

This entry will have some good bad and ugly.  First, I must say excellent job with this blog.  This was one of your best entries.  It was very clear, concise, and showed the passion which you use everyday in your job.

I know it takes a great deal of time to do this type of work, and to further work with the LRC, it is doubly difficult as it relates to time commitments.  Great job with your interaction with the bloggers and the time you and your team puts into this!

So, lets start with the entry.  I have some concerns.  [was there any doubt?]

Lets start with this – a cycle is generally defined as a linear chain of events that occur in a known sequence in a defined timeframe.  What you have described above is not this.  Because each pattern happens in a somewhat different time period, the cycle aspect of this theory as described above is not accurate.

Scott,

I don't agree.  The pattern is cycling, and it fits into your definition.  Each cycle is roughly the same, around 50 days!

It is clearly defined as a recurring pattern.  Not a recurring cycle.  If all the pieces of the pattern recurred at the same time, it would be a cycle.  So, maybe this should be the LRP?

Maybe it should be called the LRP.  But, it is still cycling!

This said, thank you for being honest with this Gary.  I have seen for some time that there was something wrong with it being a cycle.  I saw the repeating nature, but because of what you have described, this clearly now explains how a storm could “flip flop” due to the different times of patterns.  This makes complete sense now based on what you described.

But, Scott, I have used the term "flip flop" to describe what we have seen happen.  Just like this weekend's storm, which looks like December 22nd/23rd, but it is happening in the December 28th time frame in the cycle.  But, the pattern continues from this point.  There is a lot more to it than just saying they "flip flopped".  There are other storm systems that may occur in the next few weeks that could end up looking like one of the previous ones because it all fits into this pattern.  So, LRP or LRC it is a tough call because the pattern is repeating at a regular time scale....50 days or so.

So, this said…to do a forecast, you must have somehow identified each element of the pattern to smaller chunks and their unique time frames…otherwise, you could be up to a week off on your forecasts.  I would be interested to see these as some point.  

Ok..now for the forecast…

I am going to discount the first part as it is not a long range forecast and may not be unique to the LRP.  Model data could be used, so this has to be discounted.

February 23-March 4:

“Two storm systems, one of which will likely produce severe thunderstorms near or just south of our region, and it should be a rather wet storm.  The Arctic air may be lurking near by, and there may still be a strong winter component to these storm systems.

Too vague again.    10 days, 2 storms.  No dates.  Yuck.  One might produce severe tstorms.  Um…ok.  Arctic air might be lurking nearby?  Too vague.  There might be a strong winter component?  Might?

March 5-13:
Cold air again builds in Canada.  One significant storm with two other fast moving systems will affect Kansas City.  Arctic air will threaten a move south.
Too vague.  No dates, no nothing.  

I will stop here with each week..it is all written the same.  You have not provided any more quantitative detail to these forecasts.  It reads like a Farmer’s Almanac or something the CPC might offer.  This will do nothing to prove if your theory is valid or not.  The only glimpse of detail is the major winter storm at the very end.  I like that.  

The rest of your forecast should be this detailed.  You should know by now when, where, how and what characteristics to look for in your forecasts per the LRP.  I can do it off surface trending, and if indeed there is a direct relationship as you have noted in the past, then you could do it as well with the LRP.

This forecast is great for trends.  It is not good for any proof or anything really related to sensible weather that people could really use.

Sorry..I know this is harsh, but I had much higher hopes based on the responses from not just me but others on how the last forecast was written.

I am sure I will take my hits based on this entry, and that is fine.  I did not make any personal attacks, but just critique of ideas.  I believe now, based on this entry from Gary, the LRP is looser now than ever.  I still think it is valid, but it has more holes than swiss cheese from a scientific perspective.

I am sure we all will keep working on this…it just will take some time.

-----------------

Scott, I answered a few above.  You didn't mention the March 21st to March 28th bold statement.  That wasn't specific enough 40 days out?

Gary

February 14, 2008 2:18 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

Well the front has blasted through, and now the temps are starting to tumble here in St. Joe!!   As for that next system... so far I like the trend?!!  It is getting closer as a matter of fact even now the models show us getting some stuff!
February 14, 2008 2:19 PM
 

nikieis said:

when did you say the cold front was going to move threw?
is something more than snow going to move threw?
they came and salted my road and they never do that unless there will be frz rain.
February 14, 2008 2:21 PM
 

sportsfreaked said:

Just thought I would let everyone know that you will be able to see the spaceshuttle and ISS tonight at 6:28 and it will last for 4 minutes. Look at approx 10 degree above the horizon to the nnw and it will exit towards the east at approx 12 degree. It will look like a bright light and it travels at 17,500 mph or 5 miles for every heartbeat. The same oppurtunity will be tomorrow night at 6:48 and will last for 5 minutes. The same general direction in the sky. You can see it with the naked eye and if you have binoculars you can actually make out the 2 ships. The space shuttle is docked to the ISS for these 2 sightings. Here is a link to the site if you care to look it up. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/index.html
February 14, 2008 2:30 PM
 

95rred said:

we have had some suprises this winter mainly disappointed ones (accum snow just missing us) maybe, just maybe this storm sat. night will bring us a suprise in more snow than we think.  Hopeful but not counting on it.
February 14, 2008 2:47 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Just when I had cleared up that bad case of "modelitis" it comes back again with the latest NAM forecast.  Hear goes another wild roller coaster ride until Sunday.
February 14, 2008 2:53 PM
 

sportsfreaked said:

SCOTT>>>>>>>>> From a science standpoint I think you are correct. I am not on yours or Gary's level when it comes to this but here is my thoughts on your "rebuttal". Maybe Gary shouldn't use the term long term forecast as he nor anyone could pinpoint mother nature that far in advance. I do believe that it is better then the term almanac although I see your point with that term.

I think the LRC or LRP is more of a long range guide that does get specific as far as dates and storms. I think Scott is looking for something more like March 5th or 6th there will be a snowstorm.
I can't speak for Gary or Scott but this is just some of my rambling thoughts.

Now i will go take some tylenol as Scott and Gary are overloading my brain and i smell something burning. Keep up the good discussion because it gives us an oppurtunity to learn more. Oh now I have smoke coming out of my ears time to go........LOL

-----------------

Good points!  The most important thing to realize is that you are all sharing in an experiment. We are utilizing the LRC as a forecasting tool, and last year we made accurate forecasts weeks out as we picked out the features we were most confident in.  And, this year we have finally gotten more specific.  We saw how accurate the first forecast was, from January 2nd.  And, after we go through this period we will analyze our findings and see how it can become more specific.  It is still a long range forecast!

Gary

February 14, 2008 2:53 PM
 

f00dl3 said:

I wouldn't yell out snow on this Saturday's storm yet... in fact I would think this would be more likely to be rain changing to freezing rain then ending with a mix of sleet. Looking close at the NAM 540 temps, during the heaviest precip and coldest surface temperatures below freezing, the upper level temps are above 540. GFS is way too far south right now. Hopefully the GFS will shift north.

If the NAM is right, we could see over an inch of ice out of this - ick!
February 14, 2008 2:55 PM
 

StormWyndd said:

I too confess to peeking at the models, but nope, no way... nada....I'm NOT going to fall for all those pretty purple colors!  Especially this far out.

Last time we all fell for it, hook, line, hope, and stinker.  And what happens?  12 hours out, dashed hopes, the colors fade to faint green and moves off to the north, or south and east - always just out of reach.

Be strong people!  These are computer ploys to get your dreams working overtime.

lol...
:o)
February 14, 2008 3:02 PM
 

RDub said:

According to the Hydrometeorological Prediction Center, there is very little chance of ice. Ice chances are in the bottom right corner. There is, however, some chance of 4"+, or even 8"+ of snow...(!). Take this with as many grains of salt as needed...

http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/wwd/day3_composite.gif
February 14, 2008 3:05 PM
 

Zazel said:

Yeah f00dl3, in my uneducated opinion, the NAM seems to indicate we'd have a prolonged period of freezing rain.  Then again, I willing admit I don't necessarily know anything, with regard to weather prediction.
February 14, 2008 3:05 PM
 

simplykristi said:

The front has come thru here...  Our temp dropped four degrees in the last few minutes.

Kristi
February 14, 2008 3:07 PM
 

GaryB said:

Excellent blog Scott......
February 14, 2008 3:10 PM
 

simplykristi said:

Scott,
Nice critique! :)  No one should be attacking you.  This is your viewpoint.  I know Gary will respond to it.  That's what I like about your exchanges with Gary...  I like the discussions between you and Gary. :)

Kristi
February 14, 2008 3:13 PM
 

Hushpook said:

This time of year, I always harken back to two indisputable facts. One is......3 of the 4 biggest snow storms in Kansas City history occured in March. History tells us March can occasionally produce huge snow storms in our city.

14 times between 1905 until 1975, March was the snowiest month of the winter in KC. Thats once every 5 years. Since 1975, its happened once...1990. The law of averages tells us that if something over more than 100 years occured about once every 5 years, and it has occured just once in 30+ years, and not at all in 18 years, its got to happen again very soon.  

February 14, 2008 3:13 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

Gary:

Do you think some areas may reach over 60 inches of snow in the viewing area this season??? And...Do you see a possible footer snow fall this season??? That is what I have wanted to see for a long time...

Great blog...Keep up the good work :)

----------------

We should go to Madison, WI. They have already set their record and are going to have a lot more.  60" is certainly possible, but let's get to my projected 50" first.

Gary

February 14, 2008 3:16 PM
 

lezakEF5 said:

What time will the arctic front move through linn county MO....Do you think there is a chance some of the snow in Iowa has the possibility of pushing southward??

WOW....Its already 51 in Marceline!!!!!!
February 14, 2008 3:22 PM
 

PatsSoxCelts said:

Wow, the gfs looks awsome for some snow sunday! Gary or Jeremy, is this accurate?
February 14, 2008 3:30 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

Definitely a good rain storm on the NAM... Snow, well it's close...
February 14, 2008 3:33 PM
 

radman22 said:

Great Blog Gary, thanks for taking the time to give us all that info.   Its a good thing we have the blog because they never give you enough time on air to even cover the basics.... esp at 10... I guess Jack has to have his time too!!!

I agree with Scotts post as well and enjoy the dialogue between you two.   While you threw out many storms, you stuck "withing the region" in alot.   While I understand after what has happened so far this year, that was a good hedge, just in case the metro continues to miss the winter part of the storms.    The only one that really sticks out is the major storm at the end of March.   My only question is if it hits Springfield and the metro gets 1", does that validate your statement?   Your geographic parameters do not seem well defined and seems to cover a broad area.

Many will judge you on what happens in KC metro only, others will give you kudos if the storms keep spinning out west before ejecting north or dive just enough south.  This has been the pattern all year, so why would it not continue?   I know we are overdue for one good storm in the metro, but If it does not happen I will not judge your forecast or the LCR on this alone.    

Again, thanks for taking the extra time to always keep us up to date and educated.  You are hands down the best in town and I do continue to spread the word and my mom is hooked.   I emailed this blog to a few people as well so they can see for themselves.

Joe
February 14, 2008 3:42 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

I take this "long range forecast" as only having any significance as it relates to the final "storm" that Gary has progged for March 21-28.  Admittedly, that is still a 7-day window which is large.  

As for the earlier weeks - the rest of February and most of March; those statements are obviously intentionally vague - to the point of being relatively meaningless as any sort of verification tool.  To say "arctic air lurks nearby" - of course it does - it's winter.  It virtually always will.  A storm or two within a 10-day window?  Yep - pick any 10-day window any time of any month and I'll show you 1 or 2 storm systems.  Severe weather in the southeast during a 2-week window of February into March?  I bet there isn't a single year on record in which that HASN'T occurred.

It is frustrating to see hints of backpeddling/abiguity already regarding the storm...in the initial forecast, it reads "There will likely be a blizzard and massive winter storm very close to us between March 21st and March 28th" but when I sought more specifics, it was generalized to "Let's say a major snowstorm in the viewing area.  Will it be a blizzard?  We know how rare that is.  I just think it is possible."  But I'll hold you to it - "a blizzard and massive winter storm ... in the viewing area".  Admittedly, that is still vague, as I have a strong feeling that any winter event that swipes the area will be seen as vindication of the theory.  I just hope you don't come back with some sort of vindication after a little 20-degree 2" snow event with a breeze.  Sure, that isn't all that common for late March, but it certainly isn't a blizzard either.  

Regarding this weekend's event:  It seems like this is now at least the 2nd or 3rd time that storms have "flip-flopped" in the cycle.  The other day, it was mentioned that this upcoming Sunday event would parallel the one from 12/26 (53 days prior to Sunday, 02/17)...but now it is apparently more analagous to 12/22 (57 days prior).  So the cycle was once 54 days, then it was reduced to 50 +/-3 or 4 days with some events only coming every ~46 days or so...and now it is said that the 12/22 and 02/17 events are parallel, putting the cycle is ~57 days.  So we're up to 12 days (46 - 57 days) ...nearly a two week spread.  

If this theory wasn't generalized and ambiguous enough for me before, it most certainly is now.  It seems like it is washing out with fewer specifics, more generalizations, and fewer quantitative targets that would allow for any sort of scientific analysis.

For the last several months, people have touted 02/14 as THE day for the next big event...the event that would apparently parallel the pre-Christmas (12/22) snow that gave us a White Christmas.  That was a significant event - one that people will remember and marked on their callendars.  Counting ahead, people saw Valentine's Day as the next big event.  I don't doubt that had something significant happened TODAY - it would have been heralded as THE convincing evidence of the theory.  I can only imagine how many posts would fill this space along the lines of "Oh, i love the theory - this is awesome - I knew you'd hit it - just like you said, Valentine's Day!".  In reality, we had a shot of warm air, a sharp cold front, and no precipitation for at least a couple of days on either end.  These "misses" get ignored in the generalized analysis and only the apparent hits get attention.

It seems as though the phrases like "But it fits - the theory matches perfectly its amazing!  It fits so well its ridiculous!!!!1" are so prevalent...but without any teeth.  These events were never called ahead of time, so how to they fit, and how is it "ridiculous"?  If they're only forced into a 46-57 day cycle after the fact, a seemingly effective shell game is being played and, as I see it, you've got plenty of takers.  

Can anyone show me where the cycle theory called for the upcoming Sunday storm, other than in the "4-7 storms over a 25-day period" statement from January?  That isn't a forecast - as Gary even admitted when he said in a response to an earlier post of mine that "yes, 4-7 storms would hit in ANY 25-day period...but these are 'different'."  

When statements are made like "This fits so perfectly, how can you not see it?!?!?" and "It is so perfect its ridiculous - why don't you get it???" seem to fly in the face of generally accepted peer review and respect guidelines.  But I recognize you're passionate about this and your heart is in it, so I digress.

I can make any weather seemingly "cycle" if I'm given such broad domains to work with.   You've asked if I see the weather repeating, and after watching through most of this season, I can say definitively that I do not see it repeating.  The long-term long waves have certainly dominated - as they do every season of every year...a basic premise of meteorology that has long-since been agreed upon and utilized for generations before you and me.  But I don't see the cycling aspect.  

-----------------

Notes,

We disagree with you so much.  It is so obvious to us that the pattern is repeating, and that the "long term" longwave troughs and ridges are unique to this season and exist.  Just this next storm alone is so similar to the one on December 22nd and 23rd as it falls into the longwave position.  I don't know how you can't see this.

And, we see the value to these long range forecasts.  It is experimental right now, but last year we accurately predicted the very hard freeze and April 14th snowstorm weeks ahead of time. Way before any model even hinted at this.

What about the La Nina forecasts that continued early in the year saying it would be warm in January and February, and the LRC and our interpretation was the complete opposite of it.  There was much more value in our forecast than the one issued by the CDC.  Do you see this at all?

I am getting more and more specific with the theory, providing better examples, and you are suggesting otherwise.  We will just have to be on different pages until someday someone more scientific will please your mind.

The cycle is not that vague.  I am saying it is close to 50 days.  We can show you how it isn't just today or tomorrow that can be shown to exist within the cycle, but the entire pattern.  It is real, Notes.  But, it will just take some groundbreaking new evidence or proof of what I have been trying to present. 

Now, let's see what happens with this forecast.  And, more importantly let's see how this weekend's storm phases together.

Gary

February 14, 2008 3:47 PM
 

Scott said:

Gary -  your statement above "It could be 51, 54, or even 46 days in between some of our significant features." clearly explains that this cannot be a cycle.  Yes, a pattern.

A cycle would look like this

A B C D E A B C D E A B C D E.  This assumes each value in relation to the prior cycle to have the same duration.  Above you explain there are different durations.  So, over time, this will reek havoc with the assumption of a constant cycle.  It would resemble this...

A B C D E A C B D E C A B E D.  Do you see?  If each part of the pattern is even slighly off from the rest, over time the recurrance will fall out of phase.  Based on what you have explained in the last few weeks...this seems likely based on your thoughts above.

It is not cycling.  It is recurring.  There is a bit difference in defintion.  When storms are jumping around in the "cycle", it is not a cycle..it further shows it is a recurring pattern.  

This is a critical point.  I cannot stress how important this part is.  I don't believe this is a cycle based on your synopsis.  That means, equating this day to some other day or any of that is NOT valid.  What is valid, is that there are segments of days or even weeks that repeat and are recurring.  There is not an overall repeating cycle based on the fact that certain parts of the pattern happen at different intervals.

What is a one or two day variation in the first cycle then becomes a two to four day variation in the second cycle and so on.  It cannot be called a cycle.

This point does not debunk the LRP, but it does signficantly shift the focus.  I also further seperates my method of the surface trending to that of the LRP.  I do believe my method is a cycle.  I believe it happens in the same durations each piece.  I believe that it is linear, and does not fall out of line.  

I might be wrong...I will keep learning and documenting over the season..but so far...it really hasn't been more than 2 days off.  That said, those who are interested have clicked my name and seen the detail I present.  I believe the LRP should be able to do this.  

Gary, I did mention above I liked the detail of the blizzard.  I don't like the rest of the forecast.  It is too vague.  

All in all, it is still a work in progress.  I am sure you will keep on working on getting more detailed.  I know it is a huge risk for you to do so, and it is much easier for someone like me to attempt it or critique it as I don't have the responsibility that you do.  

That is 100% accurate.  I don't have the pressure you do, nor do any of the other bloggers for being counted on for forecasts.  So, if that is the reason, if the long range forecast needs to be more vague to keep within accuracy and perception bounds, I am totally cool with that.

But remember...

Everytime you deem some event to be attributed to the LRP - and make it fit within the very vague long range forecast, it will come up time and time again that you never have gotten to the detail to prove it out.  

And any assertion or promotion of the LRP will be challenged until you take the equal risk of proving the assertion in a detailed manner as you do to promoting it.

Again, I know this is harsh..but you really for the first time put out some very detailed and clear analysis to what you define as the LRC or LRP, and this is the time and place for this discussion.

---------------

Scott,

The events may be 46, 50, 54 days apart, but the cycle is still the same.  This is one of the points I have tried to explain for a long time.  This storm is like December 22nd/23rd, but it is in the December 28th part of the pattern.  This is a very tough concept to understand, but it makes sense.  This storm and the last one are moving through the overall pattern as it is cycling.  Depending on the baroclinicity that exists in the atmosphere at the time each storm may take on different characteristics, but it all fits within this years unique pattern.  This is one of the big reasons why you will get different specific results out of this storm.

Gary

February 14, 2008 3:47 PM
 

stjoeattorney said:

Well with 40.8 inches so far 50 is in reach of StJoe 60 WOW is all I can say. . . that would take one more big event 8-12 to get us to 50 then 3 or 4 smaller events to get to 60 or one big one with only 45 days left to do it in it is unlikely.  But if this weekend blows in something like 6-8 inches then I would say that 60 inches is attainable based upon the LRC.
February 14, 2008 3:48 PM
 

MikeL said:

Looking at the 18Z NAM, this could be one of my most unfavorite weather events - heavy rain for hours with a temp of about 34F.  Boy, I really hate that.  Maybe on later model runs the cold air will get here quicker...Mike
February 14, 2008 3:51 PM
 

Scott said:

Wow...bummer for Gary...I had no idea that we would be gifted with a Notes and me back to back.

LOL.

Notes - I share much of your thoughts as you can see.  I do disagree regarding there being a cycle.  I believe there is.  Now, I am not sure who is best qualified to explain it.  

Gary and the LRP is a pattern and not a cycle and is too vague.

I am not a scientist or expert, but do try to show the cycle in an empirical manner.

or you -Notes, that is the skeptic - but an expert in Meteorology.

What a mess.  LOL  As usual, I am more than willing to take on your thoughts/discussion in my blog..but perhaps will not carry the butt weight you are looking for in a peer discussion.  That is up to you.

What a day!

--------------------

It may be vague to you, but man we think it is fascinating and we have laid it out there.  There is a lot more to discuss.

Gary

February 14, 2008 4:00 PM
 

TeacherInStJoe said:

Okay for once, I 'm actually concerned over the possibility of snow. Just wondering is this to be a saturday night/sunday morning type thing.  I'm taking care of 3 kids the next 4 days until the grandparents come up Sunday afternoon.  My concern now is what will the weather do considering they are driving up from around Richmond, MO.  I guess I will have to keep my eye on this one.

----------------

Yes, let's see how it looks on Friday as the trend continues northward.

Gary

February 14, 2008 4:01 PM
 

Wthrlvr said:

It does look like there's a better chance for rain than snow for Sun.  Anyway, I just stepped outside-brrrr!  It was a nice 55 just a while ago, now it's 43 and really blustery!  Have a nice V-day. Also, loved the awesome info on the long range forecast. Looking forward to the info on the new radar.

Janet
February 14, 2008 4:03 PM
 

simplykristi said:

I believe the models not the LRC were showing something for today and tomorrow.  

As for this weekend, the storm would be part of the 25-day active cycle.

Kristi
February 14, 2008 4:03 PM
 

RDub said:

Good points Scott and Notes.

But really, there's a potentially interesting storm coming...cold rain?...snow? It makes me wonder.
February 14, 2008 4:03 PM
 

nastyweather said:

Well this is a first, the NWS just raised the chance for Rain/Snow on Saturday night from 0% earlier today to 70%.  I'm curious what Gary's has to say this evening.  Also, how this storm "fits" into the LRC/LRP?

Excellent points from Notes and Scott.  I enjoy reading what both of you have to say.  I have my own question on the validity of the LRC, but both of you have more than covered my thoughts.
February 14, 2008 4:33 PM
 

jameskessler said:

to everyone south of St. Joe:
To avoid getting your hopes crushed, do not believe for 1 second that it is going to snow heavily this weekend until it starts doing so at your house.
This will be my one and only post until it starts snowing at my house.
Most likely I will not be posting again until very late on Sunday when the precipitation is all done with and I only have a dusting of snow on my front yard.

February 14, 2008 4:34 PM
 

PoofDragon said:

I've seen Scott go from skeptic to believer to believing skeptic since I've been watching this blog. Has been entertaining. Notes has not wavered too much. Draw whatever conclusions you want from these two observations.

For the Dragon, weather and all of nature is built on cycles, and isn't it wonderful! I keep thinking of the people in Equador, where the sunrise/sunset doesn't change by more than 12 minutes in a year. How dull is that? I don't know what kind of weather they get in Quito but I'll bet it isn't as interesting as it is here. But the point is, nature is much bigger than we puny little humans, and for us to say with any amount of certainty that we can accurately predict the weather more than a few hours or days out, to the point that people should make their plans around it, is ludicrous. LRC/P or no LRC/P it's no more than an educated guess. And again, isn't it wonderful that we DON'T know! There are many other instances of randomness and unknowing. I don't want to know the exact time, place and date of my death, for example. This information would significantly alter my life and might make me make decisions I wouldn't otherwise make. I'm sure there are some that do want to know and, while I can't understand why, I hope that if you do get that info, that you also get the winning lottery numbers.  ;-)

So, Gary, good luck with the LRC/P and whatever you think it might bring you. Scott, Notes, and the other better educated weather gurus, keep studying,but most of all, keep that skeptic streak alive.
February 14, 2008 4:35 PM
 

chfs327 said:

Ok. Fine.

This storm will be only 2-4 inches of snow for the Olathe and around 1/2 inch of sleet/ice.

There since ppl want me to stop ill stop. But if Im right i want it to be known
February 14, 2008 4:47 PM
 

Emmysmom said:

Hey Gary (or Jeremy or anyone):  I know it's just Thursday afternoon, but can you maybe tell me what you think about this week from KC north towards Lincoln, Ne?  My grandma is in the hospital with pneumonia and we were thinking of going up to visit, but we dont want to be stuck in a snow or slick situation.  I would really appreciate your thoughts.
February 14, 2008 4:49 PM
 

Scott said:

Poof - I am still a supporter and for quite awhile been a supporter of a cycle or pattern.  Where I have shifted is the specific uses and principles within the LRC/P.  I think I see the same thing Gary is trying to explain, but how its applied and how its shown/communicated has brought out my critique.

With this blog, I am further away now than before in Gary's piece of the theory.
February 14, 2008 5:17 PM
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