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Omega block, it's impact, and the summer forecast

Good morning bloggers,

We are going into an Omega block.  What is it, what does it mean, and what will the impact be on us?  I will answer these questions and get to our summer forecast in today's blog.

The symbol ω (lower-case letter) is used to represent what we call an Omega Block (Notes just commented that most meteorologists use the capital letter Omega to describe the Omega bloc, but I still prefer the lower case Omega, which looks exactly like a w) A huge, unseasonably strong upper low is now forming over the western part of the nation.  It is helping throw up a big ridge in the middle part of the country which in turn is helping fuel a deep upper low over the Great Lakes.  Look below at the forecast map for Thursday morning and notice the letter omega:

The upper low, over southern Canada and the northern Great Lakes is going to fuel a cool air mass that will be just northeast of us Thursday and Friday.  One of our big questions is how much of this cool air will get in here and affect the end of the week and the holiday weekend.  We will look at this in just a second.  But, look at the second map below, valid one day later:

The huge storm in the west is causing the surface pressures to fall over the Rockies.  But, since this storm is stuck in the southwest we are not going to see a storm come up from the southwest, like we normally would.  This will keep the severe weather threat way out over eastern Colorado and western Kansas this week, but this doesn't mean we have no chance of heavy rain/thunderstorms.  Look below at the surface map, valid Thursday afternoon.  This is from the GFS model:

There is a warm front across the Oklahoma/Kansas border.  The cool air mass from the Great Lakes low is trying to come in at the same time as a hot air mass, with Gulf of Mexico air, is trying to force its way in from the south.  This may create a set-up for thunderstorms Thursday and Friday.  The NAM is still forecasting well over an inch of rain late Wednesday night into Thursday morning, while the GFS has lesser amounts, but keeps the chance of rain and thunderstorms into Friday and Saturday. 

So, the impacts of this Omega block are unknown at this moment.  The biggest questions that we will be answering on our weathercasts today and tonight are the following:

  1. Will the warm front help organize thunderstorms? If rain forms then the warm front will remain strong with outflow boundaries moving out of the thunderstorms, which could lead to a chance of rain Friday into Saturday?
  2. When will the very warm and humid air move in?
  3. When will the Omega block break down?

Last night we did our special segment on the summer forecast explaining how this year's LRC is responsible for the shift of tornado alley off to our east, south, and southeast this year.  It is this pattern that has created most of the severe weather set-ups east of our local region.  And, we believe the pattern will continue, but in a much weaker state as summer approaches.  There will be parts of the nation that sizzle this summer, but for eastern Kansas and western Missouri we are forecasting temperatures to be below average with rainfall above average in July and August. 

Average highs:

  • May 20th:  76
  • June 20th:  85
  • July 20th:  89
  • August 20th:  86

So, expect the average for each month to be a bit below average.  Rainfall is forecast to be above average due to the mean trough still located from eastern Missouri north into Canada, even as the flow is very weak during the summer.  There will likely be a brief heat wave, but I am not expecting the long stretch of heat we had last August.  The flow is very weak aloft, and my confidence isn't so high for this part of the LRC weather pattern, but I think with the trough still existing just east of us in the mean we will see regular cold fronts most of the summer cooling us off just frequently enough to prevent a long term heat wave.

Have a great day.  We will add the link to our summer forecast special segment right here once it is posted to our website in a few minutes.

Gary

Published Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:11 AM by glezak

Comments

 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary,

Just a quick note:  I believe when fellow meteorologists refer to an "Omega Block", we're generally referring to the CAPITAL letter omega (like this: http://greeklife.tamu.edu/OrderofOmega/images/Picture5.gif ) rather than the lowercase one you mentioned.  The dominating feature is the over-amplified ridge in the central US with all the action routed around the middle of the country...
Examples:
http://www.theweatherprediction.com/blocking/
http://philadelphiaweather.blogspot.com/2007/11/cold-blast-to-start-december.html  (scroll down)
http://www.uwm.edu/~kahl/Images/Maps/Weather/Omega_block/500.gif
etc...

---------------

Notes,

I know what you mean, and perhaps you are correct.  However, each time I see this feature develop it reminds me of the lower case Omega.  Don't you agree it resembles a w?  Granted, it could be drawn in either way, but to me it is more of the lower case Omega.  I have always struggled with the upper case Omega as if you just extend the lines out it really takes on the shape of the lower case version. 

Gary

May 20, 2008 6:46 AM
 

homerun said:

Good morning Gary---well that forecast sits with me very well for the summer---I was hoping that it would be not so hot and maybe a little more rain to extend the growing season.   Because of the LRC, we haven't had any severe weather to speak of except fro a little wind one night.  At our house we have had zero hail.  Fascinating.  Anyway it will be interesting to see how the rest of the weather season plays out until the next formation of the LRC!   Oh by the way I am still doing my research of great snows and snowy patterns in Kansas.  I have been slowed down this spring but will continue researching.  Take care, Michael/Berryton/Topeka
May 20, 2008 7:24 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary -
Yes - the lowercase letter does indeed still apply to this pattern - I hadn't really ever looked at it that way, but you're right, both do fit well.  

I guess it like one of those drawings that have more than one image in them - some people see two faces looking at one-another, other people see a vase.  

In the case of a traditional omega block, my eyes are first drawn to the dominating, almost over-amplified ridge, while others can easily make the claim that the highlight is the deep troughs on either side.
May 20, 2008 7:41 AM
 

mamaof3girls said:

Good morning!! I enjoyed the long range summer forecast  last night....I would love to see a cooler summer as long as it is hot enough for the pool, which it will be.  The Omega Block explanation was good and it does look like that w. Well enjoy your day, I know I will. I am excited school is about out...but by August will be ready for it to begin again, LOLOL!!!
Monica
Pleasanton, KS

---------------

It is hard to believe that school is going to be out for the kids and teachers.  Thanks for the positive feedback Monica.  Have a great day!

Gary

May 20, 2008 7:59 AM
 

Brocksmama said:


I am excited that we have a cooler summer to look forward to- my dog does not do well when the temps get really high!  Also enjoy learning new meteorology terms- thanks for explaining the "Omega Block"!  Gary do you think we will even hit 100˚ this summer?  I would not be sad if we didn't !   Dea

------------------

I am sure we will make a run at a 100 a couple of times.  But, as we said, most likely no long heat wave.

Gary

May 20, 2008 8:25 AM
 

JeriCorrell said:

I'm sorry but I refuse to accept the cooler wetter summer. The rest of you can have it but over my house, which will be at K-7  south of SMPkwy, I insist on 80's at the very least with only enough rain to keep me from watering the lawn. Also, the rain will have to wait until I get the door put into the garage and the fence extended so the dogs have a way into and out of the house besides going around to the front (Sadie will run off after anything that moves).

I wait all year for hot weather and summer, I cannot have cool and rainy. You will just have to have the LRC go around my house. Thank you in advance for your attention to this request/demand  LOL

--------------

We put your request into our computer. LOL

Gary

May 20, 2008 8:25 AM
 

5kckmartins said:

LMAO Jeri

See ya at the hosp..  I'm headin there soon, now that I got my older two off to school.
May 20, 2008 8:31 AM
 

JeriCorrell said:

Stacy I got cancelled today. I will for sure be there Wednesday. You all take care.
May 20, 2008 8:38 AM
 

5kckmartins said:

oh drats.. but no prob.  I'm sure he'll still be there.
May 20, 2008 8:52 AM
 

Braysmama said:

Cool and wet summer? Don't know if I should set the pool up this year if that's the case! I was wanting to put it up this weekend but it's going to be a little too cool, so maybe next year. :(
May 20, 2008 9:35 AM
 

NorthlandGirl said:

Gary - I Loved the Summer forecast last night and the explanation for all on the LRC!  My family now understands it a bit better and will really be paying attention this summer.  I loved the forecast and it will be more like our northern Iowa summers which I miss so much.  Great garden weather for all!!

Thanks to you and your team for putting this together!!

----------------

Great garden weather as long as it doesn't rain too much.

Gary

May 20, 2008 9:40 AM
 

kcwxguy said:

I find it interesting to really bring focus to the LRC when it is becoming its weakest.  

As more folks become aware of it, it will be increasingly difficult to make entries comparing one cycle to another where the summer cycle becomes so much more diffluent.

The LRC blitz should have been done in Winter when it was easier to show..and could be extended through Spring as an example.  

Doing it now as we head into Summer only makes it tougher to continue the discussion.  Perhaps with additional focus, we will be better equipped to have the discussion as to when one cycle ends and a new one begins.

I hope the eyes are more open this year through the transition.  ;-)

As far as the prediction...dunno...it was another CPC type forecast.  Blah.  I want patterns, I want dates, etc...

I think as much as the longwave trough is getting play for this pattern, the stubborn low level shelf of cooler air prevailing since December should be noted as well.

As much as the troughing, it has also been a contributing factor to the rainfall and severe weather in SW MO/AR.  I remember hearing this noted by Chad Meyers as well a week or two ago.  From ice storms to severe weather, the cold air mixing along the trough axis has been very evident.

The unresolved question about summer for me is the November analog.  It seems within this pattern, when the jet retreats back to November strength/location in the Summertime, do we get the same dry streak again?

I am betting we do...it does not seem to me it can be dismissed as it was so much part of the early pattern.  The LRC forecast for summer does not seem to factor this in...

I do..and think it will happen.  When/where etc?  still researching...  

Good entry/thoughts today!

---------------------

Scott,

You have been referring to the November retreat of the jet stream. The only time the pattern retreated northward was in November.  It only lasted for the first 10 days or so of November and then it massively amplified as the cold pattern showed its eyes.  It will be natural for the jet to retreat in the next few weeks, as we lose the temperature contrasts, but not yet.

And, the discussion of the LRC was important for the piece, because if you watch other "experts" from around the nation try to explain the shift in the severe weather away from traditional areas this spring, their discussions were lame.  So, it was one of the main points and evidence of what I call the "long term" longwave troughs. 

The discussion of the LRC will continue into the summer.  But, the most exciting thing of all is just a few months away when we get, yet again, a new pattern.

Gary

May 20, 2008 10:04 AM
 

Lake Lover said:

Hello Gary and fellow weather enthusiasts. I've been reading this blog for about six months and just figured out how to join-in. I guess the big, join now button in the top right never caught my eye. Anyways I'm excited to be apart of the great discussion you all have.(especially before a big storm)
Oh and Gary is there anyway we can get a lake report  squeezed in for the holiday weekend? Everyone have a great day!

---------------------

Yes, we will have our first lake report of the season on Wednesday night.  And, I will try to include some information in the blog.  We welcome your thoughts, ideas, questions.

Gary

May 20, 2008 10:13 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Scott -

If you're feeling confident about that dry period from November returning and you want something more specific than what Gary has offered, can you offer the details for that event (dates/duration/departure from normal)?
May 20, 2008 10:33 AM
 

angvic00 said:

Good morning Gary and Weather Team,

I did watch your summer predictions last night and found it very informative.  Thanks!  It does help out with trying to plan out summer vacations and outdoor activities.  I know that these are all educated guesses but it is fun to know.

However, this morning in the STAR under Voices: one reader made a specific quote about Gary...he must have made this quote prior to watching you last night.  He noted that since you will be giving a "full summer forecast" does that mean we don't have to watch you again until the fall?  Hey, that's HIS choice!  I wish him luck with that!  I know I will continue to watch this Weather Team all summer into the fall.  Keep up the good work:)
May 20, 2008 10:34 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary said:  "if you watch other "experts" from around the nation try to explain the shift in the severe weather away from traditional areas this spring, their discussions were lame."

**

Wow - harsh!

Why do you put "experts" in quotes and who are you referring to?  

What was "lame" about their forecasts?  Is it simply because they don't use your theory but instead a different technique than you that they're "lame"?

By many accounts, your summer forecast resembles the CPCs JJA (June/July/August) forecast very closely (click "Three Month Forecast" http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/ ) - they've got us around normal precip and slightly below normal temps.

-----------------------

Notes,

I predicted that you would be in here and fast after that statement.  I put "expert" in quotes because sometimes the Today Show, NBC Nightly news, and other outlets will use their experts, but their statements are basically ignorant in my opinion.  Last week someone on NBC Nightly tried to explain why all of the severe weather is occuring east of here.  And, he explained that Global Warming combined with La Nina is causing it to be happening, or something like that.  So, this is where my statement came from. 

Gary

May 20, 2008 10:38 AM
 

WeatherCop2112 said:

I'm still not sold on the long-range forecasts. Seems to me Gary just predicted summer is coming...

---------------

Yes, but we are forecasting cooler than average and wetter than average.  Not just summer.

Gary

May 20, 2008 10:48 AM
 

HailJonathan said:

well. Am I okay to put our severe weather season in the trash? a little disappointing, but I still hope that we have a active thunderstorm summer. I do not agree with Jeri on this one..I do not like those hot summers that we've had lately. I want 80s every day and if a cold front comes 75 and thunderstorms and man it would just be perfect but this omega block still concerns me for when it comes back in July!
May 20, 2008 10:49 AM
 

HailJonathan said:

I still don't know why you guys pick on Gary all the time...
May 20, 2008 10:51 AM
 

kcwxguy said:

Notes, to answer your question about November repeating, I direct you back to the last line in my previous entry...

"I do..and think it will happen.  When/where etc?  still researching...   "

Booo to CPC forecast trends and the last two LRC forecast trends!  Bring back the 45 day forecasts!

"The only time the pattern retreated northward was in November.  It only lasted for the first 10 days or so of November and then it massively amplified as the cold pattern showed its eyes. "

This little shift yielded a drystreak from Oct 27 - Nov 17th.  Blog entries in that time make a big deal out of the drought.  Go back a prior cycle duration and in early September, much was said about the same type of dryness.

Not yet committed fully to this option, but think it is possible and cannot be quickly dismissed as just one anomoly that lasted over half of one cycle.

May 20, 2008 10:57 AM
 

EdRoberts said:

One thing to keep in mind with the cooler than normal summer is that there has been an overabundance of moisture this spring. While air temperatures should be cooler, I expect us to be more humid than normal.

This block is rather interesting. If you gaze back at the weather pattern from late March, you see that the block has been around in the cycle, but over western Canada. Certainly very little in the way of blocking here in the central US. While I've never really latched onto the LRC idea for the summer (summer always has been a different monster to me), but if we cycle 54 days out, we're in store for pretty hot mid-July huh?

-------------------

Ed,

Yes, I think there will be a stretch in there, but I haven't pinned down the dates.  But, the cold fronts should keep coming preventing a long hot stretch.  The test is on.

Gary

May 20, 2008 10:58 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Oops - sorry about that, Scott - I didn't see that in your last line.

To those who say that mid-July will be hot and dry:  I concur.  And I don't concur based on any cycling theory.  I concur based on what July in Kansas is like.  Hot & dry.

--------------------

Notes,

Your climatology forecast will give you a fighting chance.  Good luck.

Gary

May 20, 2008 11:24 AM
 

HailJonathan said:

well I'm still hoping for more thunderstorms than Dry this summer, I don't even care about severe weather any more I know that ship has pretty much sailed but just some nice humid lightning, heavy rainfall  producers.
May 20, 2008 11:35 AM
 

kcwxguy said:

Ed...you read the cards a bit...read the following...

Here is something to think about….

I have mentioned the thought of what to do with the November drystreak we had and how it fits into this year’s cycle.  So, I started some high level thinking about it.

Here is just some rambling musings [;-) Bob in Lawrence]…

Assume the jet to be its weakest on July 31st, and its strongest Jan 31st.  Each month would have an associated match in associated location/strength of the jet.

July – September
June – October
May – November
April – December
March – January

Feb/Feb – Aug/Aug

This is a rough relationship…this could easily be argued a few weeks either way, but for the point of the discussion, I will proceed.

So…in November, we had a dry streak.  20 days or so.  Above, November would mirror May.

So, are we having the drystreak now?  

Consider the every three or four days of precip we have had in the last few months.  I believe we have stats on past blogs about nearly half the days this year having precip thus far.

Lets look a bit behind us and to the current time.  Counting today [presuming it doesn’t rain], we are now 9 days into a drystreak.  

We have been talking about the omega block.  This is normally a warm/dry weather entity.  Looks like it will be with us until Sunday before eroding.  I am not saying it will be dry until then, but I would not be surprised.

Take this with the comments above…”The NAM is still forecasting well over an inch of rain late Wednesday night into Thursday morning, while the GFS has lesser amounts, but keeps the chance of rain and thunderstorms into Friday and Saturday. “

Lets assume Thursday when we see rain as a compromise between the two…that would put our dry streak at 11 days roughly.  We don’t really notice it as we have been so wet lately, but when was the last time this year we had 11 days of no precip?

NONE.

How about into last year from last November?

NONE.

So, based on this analysis…could this be the drystreak companion to November?  Why not?  Does it fit with the LRC upper air patterns?  No.  

Does make you think though…and as there was a dry streak in early Sept [Aug 25-Sept 4th with one day in the middle of “T”], the cycle prior to Nov..why couldn’t it happen in the next cycle from now?

Could this come around July 4th this year and screw us all up on our predictions?

It could..but would be a stretch to accept if you buy into the LRC as September “didn’t exist” yet for this year’s pattern.

Or..it could make perfect sense in the general theory of recurring patterns in the atmosphere...

Just some random thoughts….
May 20, 2008 11:40 AM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Gary said:  

"Notes,

I predicted that you would be in here and fast after that statement. "

--  You're right, because I felt your statement was not fully explained.  Can you see why?  It was a fairly broad statement and you certainly weren't differentiating between media pundits and actual meteorologists/climatologists who have also submitted seasonal forecasts.  

Gary said:  
"Last week someone on NBC Nightly tried to explain why all of the severe weather is occuring east of here.  And, he explained that Global Warming combined with La Nina is causing it to be happening, or something like that."

--Fair enough - I too tend to reject those hypotheses of relating single events to global warming (even though I've even heard you utter the cringe-inducing "could it be global warming?  Who knows!" statements on air when discussing the earlier severe outbreak this season and other singular events over the past couple of years!)

--------------------

Notes,

Keep pushing me to explain the broad statements.  It will help me back up what I am trying to say.

Gary

May 20, 2008 11:58 AM
 

FairWeather007 said:

Hi, Weather Team!

I missed your summer forecast last night, but did check it out on the website this morning. You said exactly what I thought--and kind of hoped! A cooler, wetter summer. :) Last summer, my husband and I went to the pool one day after being at the lake the day before. The pool was so warm it wasn't refreshing--and despite the fact I'm not a huge lake-swimming fan, I'd have taken it over the pool that day.

On Gary's comment regarding the "experts" and 'Global Warming'... Do you believe in the global warming theory? It makes me cringe when some scientists put so much credence in it, and the way I've read the blog the last few months, I get the impression that you're more skeptical on the theory, but I've never really seen it said one way or the other (although I admittedly don't check in every day.)

Anyway, thanks for the hardwork. I really am looking forward to the cooler summer--I'll be 7 months pregnant by August, and it's my first, and everyone says that summertime's the worst time to be pregnant. Maybe I'll have some relief for my first go-round!

--Liberty from Overland Park
May 20, 2008 12:18 PM
 

Taxman said:

Using Scott's reverse jet stream theory, I went back and looked at old blogs in Oct.  Even Gary was concerned about the dryness that was evident around Oct. 26ish (which is 4 complete cycles ago using 52 days).  However, looking earlier into the month there appeared to be numerous wet days and lows/fronts passing through.  So maybe we are mostly dry through early/mid next week but the rain chances should increase dramatically thereafter based on reverse comparisons.  

-----------------

Yes, good point.  And, this dry spell is happening as it did at the beginning of the pattern.  But, it just has to get wet again.  I am convinced it will.

Gary

May 20, 2008 12:29 PM
 

Taxman said:

Went back and checked.  Oct. 30 was when Gary mentioned not liking the uneventful and lack of precipitation trends.
May 20, 2008 12:37 PM
 

kcwxguy said:

Taxman,

I would concur with your general assessment, but understand your analysis based on this concept is blasphemous to the LRC itself.

LOL.

It would not be prudent to associate any surface trending to that of the upper air large scale patterns that is the LRC

[tongue firmly in cheek]

One final thought of concession…and this is mainly to Notes.

I have mentioned previously, and am a bit more solid on this now..that the surface trending I do has a fatal flaw.  

Convection.  Even in correlating jet locations on matching months, with convection much more present in Spring than Fall, it isn’t a direct match.  Pulse storms and random showers spawned entirely by convection will fail this model in a micro view - though there is some protection based on nearly a year of trending leading up to the larger events.

As much as I measure by the surface, it is influenced by the upper air and the LRC itself.

So for that, I would say my method should slowly derogate as we continue into Summer.  

I would extend this same reasoning to applying the LRC to surface based forecasting in late Spring/Summer.

Maybe this is why we haven’t seen any 45 day forecasts lately?

-------------------

Scott,

Keep your tonge firmly in cheek!  The surface is majorly influenced by the upper levels.  Just look at the surface low forecast to develop over the next two days.  

Next year we will have the experiment grow with a few more long range, and more specific forecasts. But, we will have to figure out next year's pattern and cycle first.  This is why we may wait until January again.

Gary

May 20, 2008 12:46 PM
 

kcwxguy said:

Oh..and Monday looks interesting right now...

Wrote a bit about that on my blog...
May 20, 2008 12:50 PM
 

NotesInTheMargin said:

Well, Gary - how about hearing it from you:  Why did you discontinue the 45-day forecasts after the one back in February or March?

-------------------------

Notes,

I could have issued one again in early April, but we had our weather special, and many other distractions with our new computers being put in.  It was an experiment and I am going to look back this summer and decide what direction to go in next year.  But, I think once we get to January the longer range, more specific forecasts, can be done right into June and July.

Gary

May 20, 2008 12:58 PM
 

kcwxguy said:

C'mon Gary..I will show you the pattern in October saving you a few months..

LOL

---------------

Scott,

I don't believe you can!  No way.  A unique pattern sets up in October, so before October I would love for you to tell me what will happen.  I don't believe it is possible.

Gary

May 20, 2008 12:59 PM
 

angvic00 said:

FairWeather007,

I wish you luck being pregnant this summer:)  I was 7 months pregnant in August w/my first and ended up giving birth at the end of that month!  But I also gave birth to a full term baby in mid June with temperatures in the upper 80's to low 90's!  Ugh!  Either way, summer is summer and you'll still get heat and the dreadful humidity.  Drink lots of water!
May 20, 2008 1:03 PM
 

Taxman said:

Say you don't go in reverse but instead go forward from the Oct. 26 date as the cycle should - it was dry around 25 days in a row.  There is no way that this can happen now in the wettest part of the year.  Is there?

I know this is all surface based, but as a general consumer, the upper atmosphere doesn't interest me.  I want to know how the weather pattern will effect "me" here at the surface.  I would say 99.9% of the general population falls into this category.

A theory based on longterm longwaves does appear to predict accurate results for seasonal variances from average for precip. and temp.  Yes this is similar to the CPC type forecasts but it seems that the CPC types are at best 50% right - which means basically useless.

I am sold on the LRC, based on surface events, throughtout the late fall, winter, and early spring.  However, mid to late spring and summer, do not seem to follow based on surface events.

Yes, I know the LRC is not surface based but that is of no good to me.  Yet I see comments like this from Gary "The surface is majorly influenced by the upper levels."  So what does this exactly mean in terms of the LRC?  If "random" or "different" surface events can result from the same recurring cycle what real advantage does this have most of the time?

Regardless, I have watched the 4 major players in town over the past 6 years and NBC is by far the most "accurate."  My revelation came in Aug. '06 when no other station in town was forecasting even a drop of rain and NBC was and it was like an 80% chance.  I thought they were crazy to be out on a limb like that, but sure enough it poured the next afternoon.
May 20, 2008 1:38 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

Great summer forecast based on the LRC, and discussion of the Omega block.  Yes it is weird this time of year to not have had significant rain in over a week.  One thing that will be interesting is to see where the main Anticyclone will try to set up this summer, as we seem to lose most synoptic scale storms in summer, the main weather makers seem to be the anticyclone and the sometimes intense MCS activity that rolls along the periphery of the high and associated outflow boundaries, and while severe weather season will back off in general you can still get a nasty MCS that can be quite the mess maker(remember St. Louis a few summers ago as they were on the edge of the anticyclone that was giving us a bad heat wave, and that storm they had then.)

--------------------

Nick,

I think the least likely spot for the main anticyclone to set up will be in the mean "long term" longwave trough just east of us.  It may be there at times, but more likely it will be in other spots.

Gary

May 20, 2008 1:53 PM
 

Nick Rau said:

Looking at the NAM and GFS yes it does appear that even though the omega block will be kind of stubborn the it could quickly sneak up on us get get real wet again, especially if the NAM is right about Thursday.
May 20, 2008 2:08 PM
 

kcwxguy said:

Taxman,

I will be interested in the response that you get.  You see, it was this same issue you describe – almost exactly written – that spawned me to look at the recurring cycle from the surface instead of the upper levels.

Through the last two years or so, Gary and I have sparred on this topic.  So much as Gary believes to have ample evidence of the LRC existence, I too believe I have similar evidence to the surface based cycling.

Example - http://kcwx.blogspot.com/2008/03/first-shot-at-graphical-cycle-analysis.html

[Neither is enough for our harsher critic – Notes.  To his credit, I keep refining and working to quantitatively produce this in a numerical dataset]

I am sure the upper air patterns affect the surface the majority of the time, but the method of communicating the LRC at an upper air level left me empty for understanding how it would or could be applied to surface based forecasting.

[I better understand it now after spending about 3 years researching this]

Here is just one of the entries I wrote some moons ago on this topic, and within my blog in the achieves.

http://kcwx.blogspot.com/2007/10/lrc-fact-or-fiction.html

There is an “all you can eat” smorgasbord of surface based analysis and theory discussion [click my name and visit the achieves].

I am surprised to see someone else take this stance…

Good discussion!
May 20, 2008 3:22 PM
 

vhaldky said:

I am very excited for the below average summer temps Gary has predicted!  I love summer, but not the EXTREME HUMIDITY AND HEAT!!  

I think the NBC ACTION WEATHER TEAM IS GREAT!!  I know some people probably have big plans but we need some rain.  Has anyone seen the KS River in Lawrence?  It is well below the level is needs to be!!!!  At some points you could just walk across it almost it looks like!  I'm praying for a little water from the the Heavens!  Have a safe and happy Memorial Day Weekend!

-------------

You have a safe holiday weekend too!  Thanks for the kind words.

Gary

May 20, 2008 4:11 PM
 

Roberto said:

Good summer forecast, Gary!

--------------

Thanks Roberto!

Gary

May 20, 2008 4:19 PM
 

Barbara said:

I'm bummed about the summer forecast.  I was hoping for some HOT HOT HOT!!!  Oh well.  
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM
 

WinterTracker said:

Gary,
      I asked a question over the weekend while you were working on the summer forecast, and Jeremy said I should wait till afterwards(it concerned the pattern). I am going to Canada fishing this summer and am going to ask a few generic questions. All the questions apply to the area near Lake Nipigon.
-What kind of pattern may be present from June 20-July 3?
-Any idea what kind the temps. will be like?
-Could the LRC help you guess possible average temperatures for the time-span?
-Does it look to be wet in this area too?
Just a few insights I'm trying to get on the trip as it is being planned.
Thanks :)

--------------------------

It is really tough to get that specific for those dates this early, but there will likely be two storm systems moving across that part of Canada while you are there. So, there will likely be a couple of cooler days with rain.

Gary

May 20, 2008 4:37 PM
 

kcwxguy said:

Gary said - "I don't believe you can!  No way.  A unique pattern sets up in October, so before October I would love for you to tell me what will happen.  I don't believe it is possible."

Gary, you crack me up.  I told you in October this year what the cycle duration was.  Silly.  Even better, its documented.  I had the LRC pegged at 50-56 days on a November 6th blog entry.

You know that...sheesh.  

How can that be?  Because it starts earlier than October.

We have talked about this before.  The reason why you don't believe the pattern starts earlier is because you can't actually see it at the 500mb level until the jet amplifies.  This directly explains why you think it starts when it does, because that is when it is more visible - later in the season.

That is why surface analysis is so valuable.  You only state that the cycle starts when it does because you only use one way to monitor its existance.  That is why I went to the surface for a different view.

Oddly, I found it much earlier that way.  We both agree that the upper air drives the surface, so there is no reason not to believe that the surface pattern cannot be seen as well.

I am excitied about the prospect to show it to you again this year months ahead of your usual timeframe.  

Sure, maybe doing it once was a fluke or accident..but doing it again and documenting it again exactly how I did it..then..is it a fluke again?

;-)

-------------------

Scott,

As we have discussed in the past.  I say it was a fluke.  But one time may be a fluke.  Two times will make me wonder.  Unfortunately you have to wait until September to tell me what you think the cycle length will be based on your analysis. 

Gary

May 20, 2008 4:59 PM
 

RickMckc said:

Gosh, I can't wait til September now! Great discussion Gary, Scott, Notes and Taxman.
May 20, 2008 6:21 PM
 

JPnKC said:

Gary- great shows this evening - and your contest winner did a great job- you better be worried in a few years- LOL-

Looks like we need to stay tuned as is seems as the forecast is changing day by day and model by model. Remember- follow the LRC- dont believe the models...

-------------

Yes,  Charley did great tonight on the 5 PM news.  He is only 11 years old.

Gary

May 20, 2008 7:00 PM
 

KC_Hams said:

I must agree with RickMckc. I enjoyed reading the LRC pro/con discussion today. Great stuff guys!
May 20, 2008 7:13 PM
 

JeriCorrell said:

Thanks Scott. The chat box has disappeared. I chose Thursday due to my working this weekend. Hope that was a good day.
May 20, 2008 8:07 PM
 

troe said:

Charley did a great job helping you with the forecast-
May 20, 2008 8:24 PM
 

marlina10 said:

Hopefully the wetter, cooler summer will help us all save money on our air conditioning bills. But then again, I'm sure any money we save will go right to putting gas in our cars. =)
May 20, 2008 8:51 PM
 

HailJonathan said:

Oh my...I wish I was as intellectual as you guys or I was I was on some drug that made me think that way. I don't know what to say to any of this stuff  you guys are way smarter than me...oh well. at least in my circle of friends I'm the meteorologist...that makes me feel somewhat good.

--------------

And you will keep lerning.

Gary

May 20, 2008 9:00 PM
 

Andrew_Stafford said:

Just 2 wks until I fly down to Las Cruces,NM to visit my grandparents (Mom's side) for a couple of weeks!!  
May 20, 2008 9:40 PM
 

WinterTracker said:

Thanks. Believe it or not, that actually gives me about all the info I need. At our cabin, the days are usually as hot and a little more humid due to the size of the lake we're at. The storm systems will hopefully move through quickly as usual. The day before a storm it will be hot and humid, and that night there will be big storms and the next day will be cool and rainy until about 11:00 in the morning. The lakes seem to produce their own climate on the right days.
May 20, 2008 9:47 PM
 

johnmarr said:

gary you should be commended for your help to the kids and enthuisum you have given them you made that little guys day and gave alot of others hope good job
May 20, 2008 9:51 PM
 

HailJonathan said:

you know what though...Scott was talking about CAPEs on his blog...and I ACTUALLY know what that is...Convective Available Potential Energy...whoohoo I get my sticker and Jolly Rancher for the day! =)
May 20, 2008 11:41 PM
 

HailJonathan said:

I'd like to see our CAPE around 2500+ in the near future.
May 20, 2008 11:42 PM
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