NBC Action Communities

130th and State Ave, KCK .25 overnight

gary the kansas city area got the worst last night around st joseph we had sprinkles this morning what is your thoughts for this afternoon around northwest mo.

Near the Oak Park mall, 1.30 last night. 4.25 total since 12:00 am 6-3-08.

Eyeballing it from the look-and-guess gauge, just under 3.5" at Clear Creek and Monticello in western Shawnee

There is a mesoscale discussion for NW Missouri but does not appear to include the metro at this time.  Are we looking for more severe weather today and if so, would it be early evening again?

0.0 1.5 miles south of St. Joseph

Platte Woods near I-29 & 72nd street..... .55 inches

great coverage last night!

2.27 in SE Lee's Summit  total

Liberty had 8/10ths of an inch.  

Looking north east at a cool looking storm. Amazing. 4.25" in Belton. I saw a lot of what I would call rotation last night. Just up in the clouds. Power went out. Awning on deck was bent and now is scrap metal. Thanks for the coverage last night. It really helped. except when the power went out.

1.59 in SW Grain Valley.

3.83" of rain 3 miles north of Pleasant Hill in SE Jackson County.  Also had nickel size hail around 1:30 AM

I have not been able to get on the nbcactionnews website for days, glad to finally have this work again!  Do you still see severe potential for Thursday night into Friday?

--------------

Yes, there is a chance, and we will analyze the new data with a blog entry later today. In the mean time, Brett Anthony will keep you updated this morning on NBC Action News.

Gary

Good job team! What a night.
Any tornado reports from Macon, Shelby counties last night. My mother in law said the sirens went off. she relies just on those sirens.

Kelly

Wow, about 5.04" of rain at Jhonson County Executive Airport!

5.04" of rain!

Neat clouds last night, but missed the rain completely...well except for some big drops that got the cement wet.  What a bummer.

Gary, I wrote this yesterday but with all of the activity, I thought I'd post again to get your thoughts.  Your summer forecast called for below average temperatures and above average rainfall.  However, it appears with the past couple of weeks to be more above normal temps and lower rainfall.  Are you expecting any cooler temps and more rain in the next couple of weeks?  I am a firm believer in the LRC, I just don't want it to end yet!  Now when I mention lower rainfall, I live in Western KCK where I received 0.50 inches early this morning.

--------------

Well, I understand what your saying.  But, first of all summer doesn't even begin for another two and a half weeks.  And, secondly, last night there were rainfall amounts close to June's entire monthly average.  Let's just wait until the end of the month, and in July and August, and see how it has produced.  You may have missed last nights rain, but you may get hit by the next one.  It is still a wet and wild weather pattern.

Gary

5.67" of rain on the south side of Greenwood. I can't believe we got another 2" after going to bed around 11:00 PM. Kids can't wait to go look at the creeks around the neighborhood.

Steve

Gary,
What is the difference between a funnel cloud and a tornado. My eldest daughter and I differ on the answer.

-------------------

A funnel cloud is not a tornado.  A tornado is a rapidly rotating column of air in contact with the ground.  A funnel cloud is a rapidly rotating column of air in the sky, but not in contact with the ground.  We saw a few of these funnel clouds yesterday, but no tornadoes.

Gary

Just east of 291 & 150 (near Greenwood). Went to bed about 11:00 when it looked like things were quieting down and had 2.7 inches in the gauge. Was awakened at 12:15AM with terrific lighting, thunder and torrential rain. Finally got back to sleep wondering how much additional we received. Much to my surprise this morning the total in the gauge is 5.75 inches!!!!!

I live in Lees Summit around Todd George and second street and at around 7:30 last night, right around when the sirens sounded the first time, I saw a lot of rotation.    As the storm appoached from the west it looked more like a gust front as it was still sunny to the south, but as it moved east the rotation was very obvious.  Since the NWS did not issue a warning could this have just been low level rotation without any mid or upper level?

Thanks Gary,
That is what my husband and I said. My daughter who is at the age where she knows everything told us that we were wrong. I guess the last laugh is on her. She said a funnel could was something else that did not make any sense.

We had 2.3 inches of rain last night/this morning at 135th and Nieman in southern Overland Park.  Quite a show last night!  Great job capturing the lighting strike that triggered the fuel storage tank fire.

2.85" total at K7 & Johnson drive in western shawnee.  1.4" or so of which was the storm(s) that came thru around midnight.

Great job last night team!

Tim

Gary: 119th & State Line got 2.72".

Morning weather team..

3.70 Inches of rain for Grandview.   WOW what a storm(s)

Bill and Melissa

0.95 inches in North Grain Valley, most came from the first storm in about 30minutes.

To anyone that was on here last night and knew, Rolla, where my hubby is, had a tornado warning and I couldn't get him to wake up.   Finally got through to him right before the storm hit.  I had heard reports that there was one on the ground but twister11 said that his sorces said there was not.  Talked to hubby this morning and all is well.  They just had lots of wind, rain, hail, and lightning.  Thank God.
Gary and Team,
Thanks for the great coverage last night.  Hey Brett, how did you like it up there?
Becky

Just east of 291 & 150 (near Greenwood). Went to bed about 11:00 when it looked like things were quieting down and had 2.7 inches in the gauge. Was awakened at 12:15AM with terrific lighting, thunder and torrential rain. Finally got back to sleep wondering how much additional we received. Much to my surprise this morning the total in the gauge is 5.75 inches!!!!!

We received 4.8" just south of Belton, all of it after 10:00.

Gary, I was wondering: since people keep talking about the summer forecas can you give me a link to it, I didn't get a chance to see it! By the way, 5.00" of rain at Jhonson County Exxecutive Airport! Juba.

New Convective Outlook... north of the river it looks like is in Moderate Risk

at Raymore, 150Hwy and Peterson got 4.82 inches of rain.  Wonder if the heat will dry all this rain out fast.

Great.  I might as well move in to my sisters house...

I just poured out 3.4 inches of rain from the rain gauge this morning here in Warrensburg.  My poor garden plants are completely mud splattered!  No significant hail here, just lots of lightning and thunder, wind and rain.

KCK near N18th and State Ave:

0.73 Tuesday evening in two main surges.  0.07 inches more with the midnight to early AM development.   Grand total: 0.80 inches. 'On the edge' so to speak.  It was probably twice that amount a mile to the south and half that much a mile to the north.  

0.95 for June to date.

Thanks for the response Gary!  I am really just wishing for a cooler summer after the long and colder winter.

I have never seen such so much rain in so little time at my location (151st and Mission) Our neighbors yard had turned into a river, and some of my windows were leaking, forming puddles on our floor, thnkfully everything is OK. We've got two sump pumps, so im assuming it will be ok, im just worried about more rain

Total (last nite): 3.93 inches

My updated total for Se Lee's Summit is 2.85in.  Thx, Kristy

80th and Grant in OP: 3.7 inches total for yesterday evening/overnight.

Scott L.

SPC has us on the border of a Moderate Risk today and in it tomorrow.

---------------

I still think the threat will be farther north. But, I want to see how the surface boundaries set up.  If it were 7 PM right now then I would agree with this moderate risk, but it isn't.  By 7 PM, the warm front may shift a lot farther north.

Gary

I know I am suffering from sleep deprivation this morning along with the rest of us!  Which "Don" are we jogging with this weekend for the Don-n-Jog?  Needed that this morning.  :)

Great work last night team!

---------------

You are so funny.  I just got it changed.  I must be tired.

Gary

here is a link to radar indicated storm totals....  seems like reported totals are matching up.

http://weather.kskoellers.com/radar/radarlocal.php?map=str

Cable still out. So depending on blog for updates on weather expected.  Sounds like more rain tonight. Anyone know how much is expected or what parts of the city?  I'm in Greenwood.

"I still think the threat will be farther north. But, I want to see how the surface boundaries set up.  If it were 7 PM right now then I would agree with this moderate risk, but it isn't.  By 7 PM, the warm front may shift a lot farther north."  Gary

Got me.  That's why I watch you guys on tv and read the blog.  I figured since we had so much rain last night that the risk would be diminished.  But that's why I'm here and you guys do what you do.

At my house in Kingsville, we received 2.5 inches of rain and lost another good size limb of our cottonwood tree. ( Most likely if we have another storm the entire tree will come down it was damaged so badly.)  It landed about two feet from our shed and another tree has lost a good size limb. Most of my potted plants on my deck were flattened as well. Please, NO more severe weather!

I live in on the southeast side of Raymore and I had 5.5 inches in my rain gauge this morning.  

I have a question.  I live in Lee's Summit and I am not sure what the problem with our City Emergency Management Services but twice last night the tornado sirens were activated but no Tornado Warning was issued by the National Weather Service.  Once at 7:38pm and again at 8:35pm (the second time, I heard clearly from Pleasant Hill on my scanner "Advise to all Lee's Summit residents to take cover now".  No tornado warning was issued by NWS either time (didn't catch what you guys said as I was too busy moving around).

An earlier blogger ("Jacob" I believe) said that LSEM said the following: "I spoke with the Emergency Manager in Lee's Summit about why the tornado sirens have gone off this evening, and she told me that they sound them off when there is a severe thunderstorm that could produce a tornado even if there are no tornado warnings."  This is news to me as they have never done that before unless there was a definite tornado warning.

So, does that mean they will go off during all severe thunderstorm warnings?  Typically, any severe thunderstorm, by definition, has the capability to produce a tornado - they even state so in all Severe Thunderstorm Warnings with this language:  "Although no tornadoes are imminent, severe thunderstorms can and often do produce tornadoes with little or no warning."

I know this becomes a "damned if you you, damned if you dont" situation, especially after the May 1st/2nd severe weather event and people complaining that there were no sirens or warnings for those tornadoes (but that's another rant entirely about sirens).  What do you guys think?  Gary and team - your opinions?

Again, great work on your part last night.  Thanks.

Pete

Leavenworth got nothing out of all the activity last night, no wind, rain, hail, clouds, absolutely nothing. Hot, Humid and dry and remains that way this morning. We could see the terriffic light show south of us. Glad everyone is OK this morning.
They must do a personality test on Weather People before they hire you, Gary your as calm as a cucumber under the pressure of a storm like that, which really helps keep the viewers calm. I was reading the blog as it was all happening and had most of the bloggers had their way, we would have been one massive tornado siren last night. Thanks for being the station I always count on!!!

We got 3.3 inches at 135th and Pflumm.

87th and metcalf 4.28 inches of rain.  Wow, the second round was just as bad as the first.

Great job Gary and team keeping us informed last night.

Todd

I live about 5 miles east of Ottawa.  We received NO rain from all the activity last night.  However, we were in the perfect position to watch as the SW corners of all the storms rolled by to the north of our house.  Many had rotation but did not see anything touch down.  Quite a show.  Not often you can sit on your deck and watch the storms roll by and not get wet.

Dual report this morning...

At 87th & Antioch in Overland Park, we had about 3.4 inches... had about marble sized hail at one point, maybe slightly larger, but it didn't last long... At least my puppy was mostly calm through the whole thing... I was afraid I'd have to sedate him--this was his first major storm!

My husband was in Pittsburg, KS last night and he said that they had 80 - 90 MPH straight-line winds... Fortunately, his truck didn't overturn, but apparently, there were semi's that did (he's not in one of those, thank goodness!)

Great coverage last night. My sister was in town and driving with her boyfriend during the worst of it, and everytime I turned around, I had to field a phone call from her... she was seeing the wall cloud and all panicky, and thanks to your coverage, I knew she was at least going AWAY from the most intense part of the storm! Of course, then she saw the smoke from the fire in KCK, and thought for a minute it was a tornado, then figured out it wasn't (of course, I'd already informed her of the fire.)

Kansas City steps to the plate, the pitch comes, a swing, a miss, STRIKE TWO!  Oh sure, there will be those who want to argue the call, but the official reading at KCI says .01 of an inch, putting the yearly total at 15.42, a meager 1.26 above average.  While a limited part of the metro saw storms last night, there was only a handful of reports of marginally severe hail, and weak wall clouds capable of producing small funnels for brief periods of time.  Heavy rain and lightning also ocurred, as with every thunderstorm.  The predicted severe weather was so lame that a large gas tank fire became top story.  LOL.  ~ Dave

Can someone answer this for me?  Why was a tornado warning not issued at any time last evening for southern parts of the metro area?  If there was a wall cloud and there were funnels coming up and down why would the NWS not issue a tornado warning?  They issued tornado warnings a few weeks ago for far less IMO.  And then had no tornado warnings when the 2 tornado's hit the northern part of the metro later that night.  Seems to be inconsistency to me.  Was their radar not indicating strong rotation?  They issue tornado warnings all of the time for "radar indicated" tornadoes.  I would think visual confirmation would trump radar every time.  Granted these were funnels and not tornadoes.  But the only difference here was a few hundred feet or a few seconds from reaching the ground.  I think the NWS was fortunate not one of these reached the ground.  Were they that confident in the atmospheric conditions that they knew they were not going to reach the ground?  I watched Gary and the gang all evening and don't remember any tornado warnings except for the ones NE of the metro up by Braymer.  If they did this is a moot point.

a non event in Platte county, very little rain last night storms appeared to be building all around us but just one little bout of wind, we're cooking out on the grill watching all the excitement everywhere else, heard some thunder late last night but not sure how much rain we got, some but nothing like the rest of the city.

SW corner of Liberty.  Have two different rain gauges within 8 inches of each other.  One registered 1.5 and the other 2.5 inches, go figure!

hey Gary, Bret, and Jeremy....what a night.  97th and Nall received 4.38 inches of rain.  I was driving to Town Center Plaza last night about 6:15pm and opened the sunroof of my car.  The clouds were rotating right above my head.  It was truly awe inspiring.  As we were leaving TCP I saw the lowering and my kids decided that there was no other place they wanted to be than in the basement. I got them home and they were watching cartoons while I had you on upstairs.  I went downstairs at one point to check on them and was immediately told to go back upstairs and "listen to Gary".  I've been a student of meteorology and hobbiest for many years and know how quickly the situation can change.  It's been a goal of mine to get my children to not fear our weather here in the midwest, but to respect it.  Thanks to the guidance (and calmness) of you and your team, my kids are learning just that.

Tally ho and thanks again...

Jennifer

Gary, leaving tomorrow afternoon, driving to Minneapolis.  Any severe weather we will have to dodge?  If you say so, thinking the trip might be postponed.
Thanks.  Keep up the good work.
Ivy

3.74" at 79th and Lackman in Lenexa, most of which fell in about 2 1/2 hours.

David

I'm so glad he's ok, Becky. :-)

According to the latest ETA model, looks like tomorrow night is going to be a long one. It concerns me that there were no tornado warnings for the johnson county storms. There were definitely funnels forming and dissapating off and on. I guess the NWS didn't see enough low level rotation but I sure did on several storms. The storm later in the evening a little east of Ottawa had strong rotation and a well defined rotating wall cloud but no tornado warning. I don't think that will be the case tomorrow late afternoon and evening. I think its going to be a rough one for us after dark unfortunately tomorrow night and then a chance again Friday.

Thanks Lorie, me too! :)

PingBack from http://KCWeather.org/?p=2420

Many thoughts this morning, first - I will start with your point, stormhammer - I agree with your points, but here is something I am starting to have greater and greater concern with....

NOAA and NOAA onlly is responsible for watches and warnings.  The SPC issues watches, and the NWS issues warnings.  Period.  

BTW..here is the criteria for a tornado warning - "Issued when there is evidence based on radar or a reliable spotter report that a tornado is imminent or occurring."

Here are the key words...evidence, reliable/verified spotter, imminent or occuring.

First thought- [and thank goodness this station doesn't do it - to my awareness], a station or maybe more has taken it upon themselves to trump the NWS.  Media is required to alert the public for NWS warnings, but it seems we can get a box in the window now that indicates "Damaging Storms" without a warning.  Sad.  

If it doesn't meet the agreed upon guidelines of severe, which is by defintion based on damaging storms, then is it really worth worrying about?  If it were a damaging storm, it would be warned.

From a public perspective, there is no difference between that and a warning.  This is a very slippery slope and I would be interested to see who really takes accountablity if something went amuck.  I suspect alot of finger pointing and deflection.

If the NWS is responsible for warnings, then lets please let them do their job without polluting the communication with different variations that inevitably confuse or desensitize the public.

As far as this station goes, they do a great job in this regards..and kudos to the team.

Second thought- Lee's Summit.  Blah.  Shame on them.  Really, are they more qualified than the NWS to issue warning to the public as it relates to weather?

Really?

It is situations like this where media, NWS, and emergency service functions get very blurry.  When this happens, things can get sloppy and bad things can happen.  

Ok..that rant over, Gary - I beg of you..please put a line in the sand right now, because we had a very unique situation yesterday that will make a big difference in your long range forecast.

Yesterday, i pleaded for you to pick a means of measurement and verification for your summer forecast.  I ask again today.

Above,  you indicate "But, first of all summer doesn't even begin for another two and a half weeks.  And, secondly, last night there were rainfall amounts close to June's entire monthly average."

Meteorological summer is June-August.  Which dates are you choosing for your forecast?  

Yes, last night there were rainfall amounts close to June's entire average, however...KMCI recorded .01 inches.  You verify your temperatures from KMCI, will you verify your precip totals there as well?  If not, where?

It will be very hard to swallow any puffery of a valid forecast if the time and location is variable or left undefined.

I understand you are busy today, but think about this and please let us know what the rules are....

Now..after these thoughts..I will practice my duck and cover as I am sure I will get some spirited feedback...LOL

----------------------------------------

Scott,

June through August works for me!

Gary

91st and Antioch -- 3.8 inches

It was exciting to watch the two separate wall clouds pass nearby my neighborhood in NW Olathe last night.  The 2nd one actually formed into a funnel cloud as it passed by just south of our home.  Unfortunately, batteries on both of our cameras were not charged, so I was not able to get any pictures or video.  I am a bit concerned that sirens did not sound at all, but when I saw the funnel cloud form I took no chances and made sure the family got into the basement.  Thankfully, nothing more serious than a lot of rain and lighting.  

Good morning!  Great coverage last night Weather Team!!!  My total at 151st and Pflumm was 4.4"   My backyard still has some standing water in it.

Wanted to update the final total for Roeland Park:
3.52 in the past 24 hours...

WOW!!!

Lance

i am sorry scott but i have to disagree with you.

to say shame on LS, are you more qualified than LS, no you have no idea who made that decision and NWS didnt get a tornado warning out in May so what is wrong with LS seeing a funnel cloud issuing a tornado warning to warn its citizens that a tornado could happen? nothing. I am sorry but it is better to be safe than sorry.

i watched several cams and say rotation and lowering as did several people around the city. maybe it wasnt a NWS warning but i would rather be in my basement if they made a mistake again. Missing up ONE time with damage to several homes is enough for me to not always trust a warning

Back when we had the May 4th tornado outbreak in 2003 should the NWS have cancelled the tornado warning when it lifted and then re-issued it when it touched down again in Carriage Hills?

Well, guess I will be the first one to offer a spirited response to see if your duck and cover practice paid off...lol

Isn't it being a tad bit anal retentive to say the forcast was "puffery" (I need to check to see if that is even a word)

Trying to pin down the rainfall is like trying to pin down exactly where a tornado will touch down. I guess because Gary has as much spare time as you do we could ask him to say, the rainfall total for kcwxguy at MCI will be .01.
I for one find your constant battologya tad bit annoying, you kind of a philodox I think.

I think Lee's Summit was just acting to protect the lives of it's citizens - and I respect that. Last night's storm was a dangerous situation - even one slight outflow gust from the storms to the south coud have spun up enough to get a weak tornado going from the impressive wall cloud with low level rotation already present.

Now that there are no clouds in the sky, I'm pretty sure I see the smoke from the fire. Too black to be clouds.
Lol. I was right when I said if there's one place those storms wouldn't hit, it would be Liberty. Just listen to me for these storm paths.

I live in Lees Summit and what bothered me about the sirens was they went off and I looked at the T.V. and law and order was on.  It made me and several others I know alittle confussed at the whole situation.  

just talked with my sister who lives in deer creek and she hasnt had power since 730 last night. she left for work around 6am but crazy they have (hopefully had by now) been our that long

Scott, the kcwxguy raises valid points but no one is ever going to agree 100%.  It comes down to people who understand and value science and it's principles against those who, well, to be nice, don't understand.  First, Gary is the one who made his long range forecast of below average temperatures and above average precipitation.  We now know the range for this forecase is meteorological summer, June to August.  What we don't know is what location Gary is going to use, the official one at KCI, or somewhere else.  Hint, I'd chose Johnson County Executive, Gary!  :)  There are those among us who hold people to what they say, and in order to do so in a situation like this, you need to have a point of verification, which we don't yet have.

Btw, puffery is defined as:
1. undue or exaggerated praise.  
2. publicity, acclaim, etc., that is full of undue or exaggerated praise.

As for LS setting off their sirens because they felt the need, it is indeed a slippery slope.  Let's see, back on May 1st when we had a tornado warning in Clay County for a reported tornado at Antioch and I-35 I grabbed the camera and went outside to take a gander to the south of my house.  There was no tornado visible but what I saw around me was more interesting.  Despite the threatening looking clouds and tornado sirens blaring, my neighbors three boys were outside riding their skateboards with no parents in sight.  My other neighbor was outside sweeping his driveway, and another neighbor was outside working in the yard.  This is with a NWS tornado warning issued and sirens blaring!  Since people have this little respect for a tornado at this point, what's going to happen in the future when people just assume there's never going to be a tornado because their municipality has been taking it upon themselves to blow the sirens whenever they feel like it?  Somewhere there's a story about a boy crying wolf that should have taught some valuable lessons as a child.  ~ Dave

bootz,

Let me clarify for you.  When long range forecasts are discussed in the context of verifcation or not, we often hear about how it verified, or was very close, or just a bit off or something along that line.  For the context of my comment, I am specifically speaking to long range forecasts and how it can or will be verified.  

Normally along with this discussion we get the "can't you see it", or "it is so obvious to me".  My plead is to have some criteria so it is "obvious to us all".

I am aware of pinning down rainfall in a forecast, especially for an area as large as this DMA.  That said, you don't give up and throw your hands up, especially when you boast of record of most accurate for forecasting.  Without a point of reference, there is nothing objective about the claim.

For as vague as the long range forecast is for summer - Wetter and cooler, I am just trying to see if some bounds can be defined to see if that actually happens.

Short of these thoughts, i don't have responses for the rest of your rhetoric as I am unclear as how it relates.  I have stated this before and probably will many times again, should you not find value in my posts..please skip them.  I aggressively debate ideas, theories, and concepts, but never attempt to make it personal.

While I don't take your thoughts personal, you might think about debating the ideas, and not the person making them.

F00dl3, while I understand your point, the wall cloud traversed many cities in its path - Overland Park, Leawood, Kansas City to name a few....based on your thoughts, should I assume that only Lee's Summit cares enough about it's citizens to alert them when the NWS found no cause to beyond the watch that was already in place?

i remember nws says major ice stom warning nothing major snow storm nothing and just a few weeks ago no tonado waning for our friends in the nortland and all the other times they missed it i they think nws does a piss poor job the millions millions invested just my opionion

Well Zazel,
There are people that do want to be warned.  I feel sorry for the people that don't pay attention to the weather when there are warnings like that out.  I have had too many close calls to not want the sirens to go off if something is bad.  If there is a wall cloud that is rotating, it could drop a tornado  any second.  We have all seen the devistation.  Things can be replaced....lives cant.
Becky

exactly 0.00" at the fort.  this is getting old...

Also, in Lee's Summit's defense, we must remember the flack they received for not setting off the sirens when the microburst destroyed several homes in '97.  Plus, funnels should warrant warning as they can and often do, drop quickly.  

Members of the blog,

This is not to start a bunch of controversy on the blog but I feel like I needed to offer my two cents on the whole thunderstorm situation that occurred last night in the Kansas City metro area.

As has been said several times here on the blog in the last 24 hours, here a couple of quick definitions for you.

About Weather Watches:

When conditions become favorable for severe thunderstorms and tornadoes to develop, SPC usually issues a severe thunderstorm or tornado watch. Tornadoes can occur in either type of watch but tornado watches are issued when conditions are especially favorable for tornadoes. Watches encourage the general public to stay alert for changing weather conditions and possible warnings. A typical watch has duration of about four to six hours but it may be canceled, replaced, or re-issued as required. A watch is not a warning, and should not be interpreted as a guarantee that there will be severe weather!

Tornado Watch
The Storm Prediction Center (SPC) issues Public Tornado Watches to alert the public, media and emergency managers to organized thunderstorms forecast to produce three or more tornadoes or any tornado which could produce F2 or greater damage. The forecast event minimum thresholds should be at least 2 hours over an area of at least 8,000 square miles.

Severe Thunderstorm Watch
The Storm Prediction Center (SPC) issues Public Severe Thunderstorm Watches to alert the public, media and emergency managers to organized thunderstorms forecast to produce six and more hail events of 3/4 inch (penny) diameter or greater, or damaging winds of 50 knots (58 mph) or greater. The forecast event minimum thresholds should be at least 2 hours over an area of at least 8,000 square miles.

Tornado Warning
Tornado Warnings are issued when there is radar indication and/or reliable spotter reports of a tornado.


Severe Thunderstorm Warning
Severe Thunderstorm Warnings are issued when there is radar indication and/or reliable spotter reports of hail of 3/4 inch (penny) diameter or greater, and/or wind gusts of 50 knots (58 mph) or greater.

Ok so we all should be able to understand the difference in Watches and Warnings that are issued.

ALMOST ALL SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WARNINGS CONTAIN THE FOLLOWING TEXT:
“SEVERE THUNDERSTORMS CAN PRODUCE TORNADOES AT ANY TIME. IF A TORNADO
IS SPOTTED...ACT QUICKLY AND MOVE TO A PLACE OF SAFETY IN A STURDY
BUILDING...SUCH AS A BASEMENT OR SMALL INTERIOR ROOM.”

As for Lee Summit sounding the outdoor warning system, to me was a mistake on their part and was very irresponsible on the part of the EMS in that area. That is a call that must be made by the NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE. It is the NWS job to protect life and property, and while the EMS must also protect life and property, they are not in the position to sound warning alarm sirens without the request of the National Weather Service when they have confirmation of a TORNADO on the ground or imminent by storm spotter reports.

As for the event that occurred in early MAY in Northern Kansas City, brief spin ups like that can occur with all severe thunderstorms, and looking at the warnings from that area that night, the severe thunderstorm warnings did include the text “SEVERE THUNDERSTORMS CAN PRODUCE TORNADOES AT ANY TIME. IF A TORNADO
IS SPOTTED...ACT QUICKLY AND MOVE TO A PLACE OF SAFETY IN A STURDY
BUILDING...SUCH AS A BASEMENT OR SMALL INTERIOR ROOM.”

Therefore, situation covered, radar did not indicate a tornado at the time of touchdown in that area anyway.

Folks we are talking about something that can develop and spin to the ground in a matter of seconds, and can be gone just as quick. This could cause some hidden features as the radar completes a full scan of the atmosphere.

To just send out a constant barrage of tornado warnings and sound warning sirens is ridiculous. There never was one reported touchdown in KC yesterday, and the cell in Johnson County Kansas yesterday…It did have a nice wall cloud, nothing more. NWS along with Media outlets have come a long way in covering severe weather, and with helicopters and more spotters on the ground…it makes it much easier to wait and issue a warning then it did even 5 years ago.

Sorry…hope this all make sense, im sure I rambled on, but needed to get it off my chest!

Whew!

Bryan
Kansas City, Kansas

C - just one thought - comparing earlier this year to yesterday is an apples/oranges comparison.

Earlier in May, we had a wicked bow echo/derecho with outflow of over 80mph.  As it entered the metro, it was early morning, dark, and had been warned for what it was.  Also, it had little media coverage as compared to a primetime timeslot.

In its path, was a small, rogue thunderstorm in the N. Metro, that when interacting with the small cell, created a tornado.

Based on the radar, the mode of the storm, the normal behavior of a bow echo, and the time of day, all said..while not warned in time, they did the best they could.

So..fast forwarding to last night.  We had discrete cells forming into a linear storm.  Not a mature bow echo, but cells congealing.  It was in the evening hours with daylight, and had oodles of media coverage.  Even a copter or two showing the points of interest!  People were awake and warned and the storm mode was completely different.

I guess my point is this..the devil is in the details, and always is.  Without focus on the specifics of the storm, and dynamics of its structure, and historical and statistical analysis of how things often occur with each type of storm, it would be very difficult to see a difference, while in digging deeper, they were completely different.

So, to compare last night to earlier in May - in my opinion - is completely different. And why I think it is a bit scary to have anyone other than the NWS making warning decisions.

Obviously, each of us are empowered to take action regardless of the watched or warned environment.  Should there have been a feeling of uneasiness or discomfort based on what was observed, people can and should take cover...

But again...as should natually be implied...just my thoughts.

;-)

The National Weather Service does the best that it can with the tools provided, but even in 2008 weather is still something that can change suddenly, many factors can become involved, and quite honestly it's still impossible to accurately predict even 5 minutes out. This is just the nature of weather.

Wycospotter - great post.  I think the warning criteria for EAX is up to an inch now for hail...

I recently was reminded of that myself...  ;-)

Gary, my rain gage has .95 up here in Excelsior Springs.

;) Forgot all about that little change.

http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/radar/displayRad.php?icao=KEAX&prod=bref1&bkgr=black&endDate=20080604&endTime=1&duration=2

Here's a radar loop from last night - just thought I'd toss it in the mix for the heck of it.

scott- i 100% understand your opinion and think your explanation is correct. They are different but as we have all said anything can happen so having siren that isnt 100% warranted is better than having none at all. i do think you though for being far on your opinions and respecting others.

i do not think someone saying, to be nice people "doesn't understand" or value science and principles like you do is 100% rude. maybe we should think about the stuff we say before we post.

sedalia got 2.12 inches of rain. all i can say is what a night. spectacular lighting and rain and numerous tornado warnings after midnight. is it me or has this year brought more tornado and tornado warnings at night??

Darn it f00dl3, you just had to put that link in there to remind us sore people from KCI to the north how we didn't get anything!  :)

Bryan,

What my neighbor and I clearly saw last evening was a funnel cloud.  Neither of us are trained weather spotters, but I have witnessed numerous official tornadoes in my lifetime, and I can tell you that what I observed last night was a dangerous situation that instantly could have resulted in a tornado on the ground.  Waiting for NWS to see it on radar or for some certified spotter to see it and then issue a warning is playing with fire.  Ask the people in Rogers, Minnesota who last summer recieved no warning when a tornado hit a neighborhood and killed two people.  NWS admitted they messed up and failed to see it on their radar, but stood behind the excuse that given the conditions, people should have known it was possible for a tornado to quickly form with no advance warning.  For the safety of my family, I wish that someone would have set off the sirens last night, because we do not want during a severe weather situation to have everyone standing outside looking at clouds watching to see if a dangerous looking cloud formation may suddenly drop a tornado.  I would rather have a false alarm and a safe family then a tragic mistake.

scott meant to say thank you for being fair, apparently i cant speak today, haha.

foodl3- that is so crazy to watch over again.

Received 0.86" of rain at Vivion and Davidson.

Gary,

Gosh, you all are really getting some impressive rain this season!  It is amazing how much difference there is in the precipitation pattern between the KC area/region and a day's drive to your west here on the front range of Colorado.  You have an abundance; we have a scarcity.  It has been pointed out by many that La Nina spells dry springs and summers for Colorado, and that seems to be holding true this year.  La Nina sure doesn't seem to be impacting your area like it is here - you are getting good rains depsite it.

We are so far behind in moisture for this year (< 50% of average), that we couldn't possibly catch up to normal, let alone surpass it.  What I'm hoping for is a little better moisture pattern for us for the second half of this year, although realistically we'll probably have to wait and see what the next LRC brings.

Thanks

Yes, C in Raymore, when Scott was personally attacked by bootz I should have watched from the sidelines and let him handle it himself.  It's just a fact that lots of people don't understand or simply don't care about science.  If I'm trying to be rude I'm sure I could state my opinions in a way that might actually force Gary to ban someone from the blog.  Heh.  I'm afraid I've never been one to sugar coat anything I say, which is different than trying to be mean and/or rude.

And I almost forgot to mention that it was great comfort to see Sky Tracker up in the sky over our neighborhood keeping an eye on that wall cloud over Lenexa.  Good job by everyone on the team last night!!

Csitzman:

I respect your thoughts on the situation and hope that if you or anyone else in the area felt they were in danger they took the necessary precautions to protect themselves and their property.

The problem is people don't have respect for the sirens, at times they go off too much, other times not enough. Our situation has gotten better but if a tornado warning for NORTHERN platte county went off every siren in platte county would go off, so people ignore them unless the news teams are telling people what cities they are headed for. I live right across from a siren and believe me they used to call "WOLF" too much. It is much better these days and sirens should have a respect and an impact if they are used correctly. The 2 AM event in May the sirens should have gone off across the entire metro, even though tornadoes were not visible the majority of people were asleep, I would think HURRICANE force winds are just as dangerous as tornaodes and since most of KC was asleep that is certainly a time to issue the sirens. I am sure there is areason for this, but I would think in this day and age of technology that some sort of wind gauge could triggerthe sirens especailly at night to automatically go off, now for all you weather buffs I realize that these storms can drop and being fore warned is very important and this theory has some flaws but the sirens are really the most important at NIGHT, during the day at least you can see the weather and hopefully have not lost your power to keep abreast of what is happeneing. I also realize that even a 10 minute warning can save lives and the sirens have their place when used responsibly, too many times they have not and unfortuntely people ignore them, like the guy in Clay county just sweeping the driveway!!

I guess this whole arguement about LS sirens stems from the job functions of the EMS and NWS.  If only the NWS has the function to issue warnings then why is the EMS in charge of sounding the alarm?  I believe that the EMS has the authority to issue warnings based on observations while the NWS relies mainly on radar.

I am interested/concerned about how the radar didn't suggest that the NWS should issue a warning when physical observation clearly pointed out funnell clouds capable of producing a tornado at any time.  Does the city affect the radar signals to a point that accurate measurement can not be made?  Or were the people making the observations incorrect in their assessment?

zazel- your have no merit, you dont know who is educated on this board and who is not so to generalize something like that is wrong cause you attacked a whole group of people who didnt agree with scott. and yes you should just sit back and let scott handle it, which he did with tact.

i have no idea where the word "fact" went but i meant to say your fact has no merit

Just over 4.25" of rain in my gauge at 161st & Mur-Len (Olathe)

KChomeloan-

but the sirens are really the most important at NIGHT, during the day at least you can see the weather and hopefully have not lost your power to keep abreast of what is happening.

Absolutely not!

Sirens are not meant to wake you up, they are for individuals who are OUTSIDE only. If you want to be woken up in the middle of the night, get a weather radio. They will alert you at any time of the night when a watch or warning is issued.

LOL C, here I thought you might be choosing to personally attack me after I made a post that's as close to apologizing for something as I can, when it's something I don't believe I need to apologize for.  /grin.

gary when will we get a new blog for tommrows event

the warm front is showing up rather nicely on the vis. sat. imagery:

http://adds.aviationweather.gov/satellite/displaySat.php?region=ICT&isingle=mult_big&itype=vis

it looks like it is around overland park right now...not making much if any progress north.  i guess thats why they call it stationary...

that will be the focal point for storms later...lets hope us up NW of the city can get a raindrop from it this time around.  we have actually been running below average in precip since about the last 1/3 of april...and we have been running hotter than places not too far away...like kci for example.  we have hit 90 a couple times in the past week...kci has yet to register anything close...well, i guess 88 is close, but you get the point.  frustrating...why is it that people that got hit hard by the storms this winter are getting completely missed now? i see zero correlation between weather patterns this year.  i am perplexed.  murph out!

My kids wanted to sleep in the basement last night, so they did.  I am glad. The storms kept me partially awake all night, and my kids are usually up by 7:30am! Today in the very dark basement, they slept until 10am!  So I got to sleep in too! I think I may put them in the basement to sleep more often!  I am still having issues with my weather radio.  If I turn it on I hear a constant weather report, if I leave it in the on position, but hit the weather/snooze button so the report goes off, it never alarms for warnings.  Anyone know what I should do to fix it. When I bought it a few weeks ago, it worked great! Not sure what has happened that it won't alert now, or will play a constant weather report.

Fun times! LMAO
Any way alot of you all seem very smart on weather issues. I was just wondering if I could get some thoughts on Tonight and tomorrow nights storm potential.

NEW BLOG!

Kimberly,
       There should be a switfch that says Alarm On/Off, and you should keep it on the weather/snooze button. If you tell me which radio you have I can definately help you much more.
      Aside from that, tomorrow's severe weather risk looks to be lowering with the storms coming in at night. Or, at least the tornado threat is lowering, with the nighttime storms. I wonder if it will be a bow echo event like May 1st.

Lee's Summit sounding the sirens without a warning makes up for Lawrence/Douglas county NOT sounding the sirens when there was a tornado warning a few weeks ago.  What is nice about improved storm spotting and forecasting is a lot of places are re-evaluating their siren policy.

I can't help but think tomorrow is going to be significant. Im not a meteorologist, just a stormchaser but I know enough that everything points to a significant severe weather outbreak tomorrow. For us in K.C, It looks like a 7PM to 3am event. All the parameters are coming together for some destructive Tornadoes over central into eastern kansas up into nebraska. What concerns me is that the tornadic threat could go well into the night/early morning hours. Its never good when the threat is at night. if the system speeds up a bit, then we would see the threat earlier. My guess is Tornadic Supercells which could be long tracking and then a hellacious squall line with embedded supercells around 10PM for us here in K.C. Maybe similar to the line that spawned the Tornadoes a while back. i will have to say that this looks more intense though. I think everyone should listen to Gary and stay tuned.

WYCO spotter-- I understand that was the original intent of sirens but life has changed since the 50's but you have a valid point.

I have a weather radio and turned it off because it goes off constantly, worse than the siren ,if you read the blog comments it appears a lot of people have issues with the weather radios. I wish the weather radio could use like a gps and be able to zero in on a certain area to go off?? YOu are correct about them waking AND keeping you up all night !!

Roberto, I have the Price Chopper one, the Midland WR-100.  I have the on/off switch set to on.  If I push the weather/snooze button, I get the current weather report. But when I first used it a few weeks ago, it would give the report and then be quiet. Now when I push the weather/snooze button, it is talking constantly! It does not go silent at all. Is that because of all the flood watches/warnings today, or will it always be on constantly.  If I hit weather/snooze again (to snooze) it turns off, but then I get no alerts at all. That is what happened last night. I could have it constantly giving weather reports, or I could have it to snooze, but then I got no alerts at all.  I want it to go off in the middle of the night (like it did a week ago), but I don't want to hear it constantly. Am I making sense?

hey Gary we got here at on E prairie st. in Olathe,ks 1.97" of rain

Kimberly,

I turn down the volume on mine so that I still get the loud warning chime, but can not hear the description.  I find that useful when there are a lot of flood warnings.

csitzman,

You bring up an interesting point....

"Waiting for NWS to see it on radar or for some certified spotter to see it and then issue a warning is playing with fire."

There are a couple ways to think about this statement, but from a general sense, this is a dilemma in an imperfect system.  This is the main focus that I hear each year in visiting the Severe Storm Workshop sponsored by NOAA, Emergency Managers, and Media Meteorologists.

Continued evolution of the relationship between these three entities can only better serve the public.  And for the efforts that have already been made, we are eons ahead of where we were even 10 years ago.

That said, there is a method to the madness I think.  While not perfect, it does answer [in my mind] some of what you describe.

We all have clearly been influenced and benefit in many ways from the advances in communication and technology.  Meteorology is no different.  In discussing, analyzing and otherwise communicating weather events, things are much better now than ever.

That said, we also have seen the media advance in how they communicate and inform of severe events.  But, here we begin an interesting dynamic that will address your point above.  Media competition is EXTREMELY fierce.   Every station wants to be first and most watched.  More viewers more money.

Ok.  Making good TV during storm season is good footage of storms and having a “spotter” network aiding the stations.  Be it a helicopter, a spotter, or someone else assisting.  This has created, in parallel with the appeal of storms, a demand for people to participate in storm chasing, spotting, or to profit from the demands of media.

This has brought many more people into the arena for spotting.  Many people spotting or chasing have no business being out there and have little concept of what they are seeing, yet these spotters are the first to make reports or call the media.

Let me be clear, the majority of spotters/chasers are very responsible.  It is the 80/20 rule of these 20% that hose up the works.

It is for this that the NWS must have a confirmed and normally collaborated account of a spotting report.  If they did not do this due diligence, we would have abnormally high amounts of bogus reports both negatively impacting the public and scientific data.  Additionally, we would be hearing sirens and having EMS interruptions during almost every thunderstorm.

So, for this…I think it is valid that the NWS take only “qualified” or “confirmed” accounts to make public warning decisions.

Have no doubt; the NWS was watching the coverage of the storm yesterday.  In past discussions with NWS personnel that I have done, many offices have TVs on for this very reason.  In addition, the NWS has instant chat functionality with spotting coordinators and local media meteorlogists.  

It is critical for the NWS folks to get as much data as possible to make the best decision for warning the public.  

It is my belief that in yesterday’s situation, in addition to what they analyzed in the atmosphere beyond the radar, what they did see in the radar, their experience, spotter reports, and what they saw on TV, the acted accordingly.

I think ultimately, as Wycospotter described, every watch/warning has verbiage to be aware and to realize things can and do change quickly. I think this is the best that can be done with the ongoing grey area that will exist as these three functions work together…

;-)

WyCoSpotter-

Nice post - Nice specifics about watches and warnings for everyone.

However, I do have to pick at one of your comments specifically.  I will assume (which will probably get me into trouble) that you are a trained spotter.


"It did have a nice wall cloud, nothing more."

By your comments can I assume that you did not see a funnel at anytime last evening and refute the fact that Gary and Co., Sean, along with other stations did in fact see funnels forming last night.

Scott-

I have no doubt that is what was occurring last evening at the NWS, BUT if there really were funnels coming up and down how could there not have been a Tornado Warning issued?  That took some strong will to stand down when there were funnels dropping.  Granted, they got this one right with no touchdowns but I would not want to make the "no" call and have something touchdown when I saw the beginnings of a tornado (funnel).  

This makes me wonder were those actually funnel clouds?  Or just SLC? (aka Scary Looking Clouds to Scott :))

2.28 inches of rain from the storm.

We had 2.28 inches of rain in eastern De Soto from the storm.

Final Rain Total 131st & Blackbob in Olathe: 2.36 inches

Does anyone have a rainfall total close to Westwood, KS?